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I see your point regarding wanted posters and providing bounties for info on criminals. What’s going on with the intelligence agencies buying data from data bro

by lumb63 3y ago

I see your point regarding wanted posters and providing bounties for info on criminals. What’s going on with the intelligence agencies buying data from data brokers is definitely similar. However, it seems to me that the scale of what is going on at present is much larger; it is likely akin to having a wanted poster and providing bounties for any info on all people, criminal or otherwise. The vast majority of people whose data is being provided are probably innocent and not suspected of any crimes at all, nor will they ever be. And, as you say, the fourth amendment is a “government can’t bust down your door for no reason” rule. It seems where we differ is that I interpret (as does the U.S. Supreme Court since Katz v. United States) the “bust down your door” part to mean much more than my physical door, which is why I find that it violates the “spirit” of the fourth amendment: in my mind, an amount of privacy that it is reasonable to expect (e.g. what entities a person is communicating with over their own internet connection) is being denied by the government to perhaps all citizens using the Internet. It sounds like we agree that the amount of data being collected on people via the internet is way too much and should be restricted. I think that regardless of whether or not stopping the government and its agencies from purchasing such data is or is not in keeping with the spirit of the fourth amendment, we will need legislation to protect the privacy we want from the government, and definitely from corporations. Let’s work toward that end.

kube-system 3y ago
> we will need legislation to protect the privacy we want from the government, and definitely from corporations. Let’s work toward that end. I agree with the latter, but not the former. If you solve the commercial data privacy issue here, the entire problem is solved, because it is the root cause. We don't need a law that prevents the government from buying records about your internet traffic. We need a law that prevents companies from selling it to anyone.
- godelski 3y ago
  > If you solve the commercial data privacy issue here ... because it is the root cause. I think many agree that this is a fundamental part of the problem but the article is about the NSA who has been known to gather a massive amount of information on the public through entirely their own means. But no doubt destroying surveillance capitalism will be a big win for the privacy, security, and safety of the public. From the government, foreign adversaries, and other members of the public alike. But the war will not be won despite victory in a major battle. > We don't need a law that prevents the government from buying records about your internet traffic. You're right. We shouldn't need a law and this will likely come down to a court case that would make explicit the spirit part. As government entities are not allowed to obtain evidence via means that an average citizen would. Which is the entire point. If the gov would need a warrant to collect that data themselves, they need a warrant to elicit that evidence (distinctly different from evidence freely and voluntarily being given to them). Meaning they need a warrant to buy the evidence. > We need a law that prevents companies from selling it to anyone. We need laws to prevent the collection in the first place.
  - kube-system 3y ago
    > We need laws to prevent the collection in the first place. Agreed, when possible. But the vast majority of this information is just generated from the activities inherent to doing business and it's always possible to prevent it from being collected at all. I think it's generally okay and expected that businesses have information related to my interactions with them. But I think people don't expect or like the idea of that information being shared with third parties who didn't need to be involved.

by lumb63 3y ago

kube-system 3y ago

> we will need legislation to protect the privacy we want from the government, and definitely from corporations. Let’s work toward that end. I agree with the latter, but not the former. If you solve the commercial data privacy issue here, the entire problem is solved, because it is the root cause. We don't need a law that prevents the government from buying records about your internet traffic. We need a law that prevents companies from selling it to anyone.

godelski 3y ago
> If you solve the commercial data privacy issue here ... because it is the root cause. I think many agree that this is a fundamental part of the problem but the article is about the NSA who has been known to gather a massive amount of information on the public through entirely their own means. But no doubt destroying surveillance capitalism will be a big win for the privacy, security, and safety of the public. From the government, foreign adversaries, and other members of the public alike. But the war will not be won despite victory in a major battle. > We don't need a law that prevents the government from buying records about your internet traffic. You're right. We shouldn't need a law and this will likely come down to a court case that would make explicit the spirit part. As government entities are not allowed to obtain evidence via means that an average citizen would. Which is the entire point. If the gov would need a warrant to collect that data themselves, they need a warrant to elicit that evidence (distinctly different from evidence freely and voluntarily being given to them). Meaning they need a warrant to buy the evidence. > We need a law that prevents companies from selling it to anyone. We need laws to prevent the collection in the first place.
- kube-system 3y ago
  > We need laws to prevent the collection in the first place. Agreed, when possible. But the vast majority of this information is just generated from the activities inherent to doing business and it's always possible to prevent it from being collected at all. I think it's generally okay and expected that businesses have information related to my interactions with them. But I think people don't expect or like the idea of that information being shared with third parties who didn't need to be involved.