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Freedom of expression remains intact (no political prisoners) and elections are free and fair. Separation of powers is lacking, which is a risk long-term. But f

Freedom of expression remains intact (no political prisoners) and elections are free and fair. Separation of powers is lacking, which is a risk long-term. But for now, the regime clearly has democratic legitimacy (highest approval ratings in the Western hemisphere!) This NYT article has testimonies from citizens about how much more free they feel now: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/09/world/americas/el-salvador-gangs.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/09/world/americas/el-salvado...

wolverine876 3y ago
> the regime clearly has democratic legitimacy (highest approval ratings in the Western hemisphere!) Approval ratings, however accurate, are not at all democratic legitimacy, and those and testimonials are right out of the dictator's playbook. Putin, Mussolini, Modi, etc. etc. can say all the same. Democracy - in any meaningful sense - is more than mob rule (which is popular rule!), or rule by a (supposedly) enlightened dictator. It is rule of law, and protects the rights and self-determination of everyone, including the unpopular.
- Georgelemental 3y ago
  > Democracy - in any meaningful sense - is more than mob rule No, "democracy" literally is mob rule, or at least that's how the term has been used for most of its history. > Protects the rights and self-determination of everyone On that front, El Salvador is doing better than ever. It used to be, the rights of the 2% of gang members were respected, while the 98% of honest citizens had no rights and lived in fear. Now, the 98% have full rights. That's +96% people with full rights
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    I'm sure you know that democracies, in reality, actually have rule of law and universal rights. > It used to be, the rights of the 2% of gang members were respected, while the 98% of honest citizens had no rights and lived in fear. Now, the 98% have full rights. That's +96% people with full rights The textbook language of the dictator and populist oppressor. Maybe it will be different this time, but that's a huge risk to take.
    - Georgelemental 3y ago
      > I'm sure you know that democracies, in reality, actually have rule of law and universal rights. "Democracies", in reality, are usually some sort of representative constitutional republic that contains deliberately anti-democratic elements (an unelected judiciary, for example). Pure mob rule doesn't work, so in practice it's always diluted. > Maybe it will be different this time, but that's a huge risk to take. It is a risk, I agree. All regime changes are risky, as power inevitably ends up concentrated in one person or small group for at least a short period, so a lot ends up riding on their personal competence and morals. So far this one is working out extremely well, hopefully the trend will continue.
      - wolverine876 3y ago
        > It is a risk, I agree. Exactly as expected for another dictator: https://thehill.com/homenews/house/4441292-democratic-lawmakers-urge-biden-address-authoritarian-actions-salvadoran-president/ https://thehill.com/homenews/house/4441292-democratic-lawmak... ... during Bukele’s first term, he has “overseen the militarized harassment of the legislature, a significant erosion of judicial independence, and the de facto criminalization of civil society.” “With the election approaching, this crushing of dissent and restriction on multiparty democracy has extended to the arrests and arrest warrants of political opponents, including the former Salvadoran Ambassador to the United States, Rubén Zamora,” ... > All regime changes are risky Exactly as expected for apologists: Equalizing democracy and dictatorship is really the message of statement, and we know very well that it's BS. Who is Bukele or anyone to seize power from people in El Salvador and tell them what they must do? > So far this one is working out extremely well, hopefully the trend will continue. Apparently not!
        Georgelemental 3y ago
        > Who is Bukele or anyone to seize power from people in El Salvador and tell them what they must do? He's the democratically elected president with 90% popular approval. The power he seized used to reside in the hands of MS-13 and Barrio 18. Under the former rule of the maras: - no freedom of speech: you break omertà, they kill you. The gangs even put up signs: "see, hear, and shut up" - no freedom of movement: you enter the wrong neighborhood, they kill you - no reproductive rights: they think you're pretty, they rape you - no property rights: you have something they want, they take it from you - no due process: you piss them off, they kill you - no right to life: they feel like killing someone, they kill you People used to live like slaves, every day was hell. Now they can work, go to school, play outside, visit relatives, etc without fear. Ask any Salvadoran, they will tell you that they feel more free than ever now. But for some reason all the "human rights defenders" want to force Salvadorans to return to the horrible past. Better that than admitting their ideology has failed: https://twitter.com/nayibbukele/status/1750681591200768160/ https://twitter.com/nayibbukele/status/1750681591200768160/

wolverine876 3y ago

> the regime clearly has democratic legitimacy (highest approval ratings in the Western hemisphere!) Approval ratings, however accurate, are not at all democratic legitimacy, and those and testimonials are right out of the dictator's playbook. Putin, Mussolini, Modi, etc. etc. can say all the same. Democracy - in any meaningful sense - is more than mob rule (which is popular rule!), or rule by a (supposedly) enlightened dictator. It is rule of law, and protects the rights and self-determination of everyone, including the unpopular.

Georgelemental 3y ago
> Democracy - in any meaningful sense - is more than mob rule No, "democracy" literally is mob rule, or at least that's how the term has been used for most of its history. > Protects the rights and self-determination of everyone On that front, El Salvador is doing better than ever. It used to be, the rights of the 2% of gang members were respected, while the 98% of honest citizens had no rights and lived in fear. Now, the 98% have full rights. That's +96% people with full rights
- wolverine876 3y ago
  I'm sure you know that democracies, in reality, actually have rule of law and universal rights. > It used to be, the rights of the 2% of gang members were respected, while the 98% of honest citizens had no rights and lived in fear. Now, the 98% have full rights. That's +96% people with full rights The textbook language of the dictator and populist oppressor. Maybe it will be different this time, but that's a huge risk to take.
  - Georgelemental 3y ago
    > I'm sure you know that democracies, in reality, actually have rule of law and universal rights. "Democracies", in reality, are usually some sort of representative constitutional republic that contains deliberately anti-democratic elements (an unelected judiciary, for example). Pure mob rule doesn't work, so in practice it's always diluted. > Maybe it will be different this time, but that's a huge risk to take. It is a risk, I agree. All regime changes are risky, as power inevitably ends up concentrated in one person or small group for at least a short period, so a lot ends up riding on their personal competence and morals. So far this one is working out extremely well, hopefully the trend will continue.
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      > It is a risk, I agree. Exactly as expected for another dictator: https://thehill.com/homenews/house/4441292-democratic-lawmakers-urge-biden-address-authoritarian-actions-salvadoran-president/ https://thehill.com/homenews/house/4441292-democratic-lawmak... ... during Bukele’s first term, he has “overseen the militarized harassment of the legislature, a significant erosion of judicial independence, and the de facto criminalization of civil society.” “With the election approaching, this crushing of dissent and restriction on multiparty democracy has extended to the arrests and arrest warrants of political opponents, including the former Salvadoran Ambassador to the United States, Rubén Zamora,” ... > All regime changes are risky Exactly as expected for apologists: Equalizing democracy and dictatorship is really the message of statement, and we know very well that it's BS. Who is Bukele or anyone to seize power from people in El Salvador and tell them what they must do? > So far this one is working out extremely well, hopefully the trend will continue. Apparently not!
      - Georgelemental 3y ago
        > Who is Bukele or anyone to seize power from people in El Salvador and tell them what they must do? He's the democratically elected president with 90% popular approval. The power he seized used to reside in the hands of MS-13 and Barrio 18. Under the former rule of the maras: - no freedom of speech: you break omertà, they kill you. The gangs even put up signs: "see, hear, and shut up" - no freedom of movement: you enter the wrong neighborhood, they kill you - no reproductive rights: they think you're pretty, they rape you - no property rights: you have something they want, they take it from you - no due process: you piss them off, they kill you - no right to life: they feel like killing someone, they kill you People used to live like slaves, every day was hell. Now they can work, go to school, play outside, visit relatives, etc without fear. Ask any Salvadoran, they will tell you that they feel more free than ever now. But for some reason all the "human rights defenders" want to force Salvadorans to return to the horrible past. Better that than admitting their ideology has failed: https://twitter.com/nayibbukele/status/1750681591200768160/ https://twitter.com/nayibbukele/status/1750681591200768160/