15 ms·

The US is urbanized...if you want it. There are plenty of places where people that enjoy living in urban areas can do so. However, to me, that sounds like an un

The US is urbanized...if you want it. There are plenty of places where people that enjoy living in urban areas can do so. However, to me, that sounds like an unenjoyable hellscape. Been there, done that. The beauty of the US is that people have choices, and aren't pigeonholed into someone else's idea of "enjoyable".

erikaww 3y ago
I think you got it backwards. Cities now only build these subury sfh highway parking lot hellscapes and ban anything remotely dense So everyone is pigeonholed into something you want
- tekknik 3y ago
  density can be hugely detrimental to climate change if the city isn’t built in a green way, which no US city currently is and will likely not be in your lifetime. under the guise that your desire to live in a highly dense climate wasteland, by 2035 we should require either everybody move away from city centers, or require cities be zero emission. your decisions are affecting me, isn’t that the norm now?
  - earthling8118 3y ago
    If we can't make the more efficient cities sustainable, why in the world would it be possible to do the same thing with everyone spread out?
marssaxman 3y ago
There really are not plenty of places in the US where you can live a good, urban, non-car-oriented life, and you can tell that is true because the ones which do exist tend to be very expensive, showing that they are in high demand. You clearly do not desire an urban lifestyle, and I won't try to change your mind about that, but those of us who do want urban living generally don't find that our choices are either plentiful or affordable.
- trimethylpurine 3y ago
  I think it's because urbanites keep getting suckered into letting builders do "condensed affordable housing" under the false premise that more housing means cheaper housing. Obviously that would only be true if the units were owned by competitors. Where one contractor owns all the units they set the prices, and they have no reason to make them "affordable." Just condensed.
  - recursive 3y ago
    > they have no reason to make them "affordable." The money they make is {rent} × {units rented}. The reason they don't set rent to $1billion is that they will rent zero of them. I think this shows that they do have a reason to lower prices, at least at some range.
    - trimethylpurine 3y ago
      Sure so long as the assumption is that they aren't cheating. But apparently Congress thinks they are. Hence the lawsuits.
  - adrianN 3y ago
    Supply and demand would like to have a word with you.
    - trimethylpurine 3y ago
      Congress would like to have a word with contractors about "supply and demand." https://www.wyden.senate.gov/news/press-releases/wyden-and-welch-introduce-legislation-to-crack-down-on-companies-that-inflate-rents-with-price-fixing-algorithms https://www.wyden.senate.gov/news/press-releases/wyden-and-w...
  - trimethylpurine 3y ago
    For the downvoters, nice of you to hope I'm wrong but unfortunately: https://www.wyden.senate.gov/news/press-releases/wyden-and-welch-introduce-legislation-to-crack-down-on-companies-that-inflate-rents-with-price-fixing-algorithms https://www.wyden.senate.gov/news/press-releases/wyden-and-w... Honestly who is downvoting this anyway? Do you work for big contractors or just like unaffordable housing as long as it's condensed? Evil much?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
jamil7 3y ago
> The beauty of the US is that people have choices This is backwards, you’ve got no choices in a lot of US cities other than to drive.
HEmanZ 3y ago
Do you have experience living in any variety of urban areas in first world countries outside of the US? Have you been to many cities in the US? I don’t think you can possibly have done either of these and still think the US has any urbanism. And literally all most moderate urbanists ask for is “please lower regulations so that the free market can build what some of us want and I can actually have a choice.”
- shiroiuma 3y ago
  >Do you have experience living in any variety of urban areas in first world countries outside of the US? The vast, vast majority of Americans have never even been outside the US (except maybe to Canada, and possibly Mexican tourist spots), let alone lived outside the US in a first-world country, and this includes the OP and most people on HN. It's why reading comments on urbanism on forums like this is both entertaining (because it's so wrong and US-centric) and depressing.
  - sebastos 3y ago
    Most Americans on hackernews have never been outside of the US? That strikes me as a near impossibility. Evidence?
    - jhbadger 3y ago
      There are only 160 million US passports in circulation (out of a population of 330 million. So roughly half. Of course HN people tend to be middle class or higher so they'd more likely be in that 50%. But still, the US is huge (roughly the size of Europe (Europe is approximately 10,180,000 sq km, while United States is approximately 9,833,517 sq km). There's plenty of places to go in the US without needing to go elsewhere. And look at the tiny passport numbers in the 1990s! That's because before 9/11 you didn't need one to go to Canada or Mexico if you had other identification (like a driver's license) showing you were from the US. I've heard that you can still go to Canada that way if you drive rather than fly, but I haven't tried it. https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/about-us/reports-and-statistics.html/ https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/about-us/reports-...
bertil 3y ago
The most common criticism I hear against cities is that they are loud. Cities aren't loud; cars are loud. You experienced a bad compromise of having high density of a city and the high car ownership of suburbia. Like a "stroad," a road that is trying to be a street, it doesn't work. Try to spend a week in a place with walkable density and no cars: Amsterdam, Oslo, or closer to US, Disney Land.
- SoftTalker 3y ago
  Cars aren't that loud. Trucks, buses, and trains are loud, and that is what you have a lot of in urban areas.
  - fragmede 3y ago
    Thing is, we can build better buildings that are more resistant to noise pollution, regardless of the source. If I can't hear my neighbors, then I can totally ignore them. Which makes it livable.
    - dns_snek 3y ago
      The problem with this is that it reinforces the notion that you "live" inside and only go outside when you need to get somewhere. How are you ever going to enjoy a nice street-side cup of coffee in peace? Or take a walk around your neighborhood? Or engage in any outdoor social activity? If you allow the outside to be unpleasant, then people are increasingly going to stay inside which has negative societal ramifications.
      - fragmede 3y ago
        I think we can agree that not being woken up by your neighbors drunkenly blasting music at 3am is preferable to the alternative. But people should be able to live their lives and if they want to celebrate a big win at work or whatever, as long as it doesn't bother me, who am I to say they shouldn't at 3am on a Wednesday? Yes the outside needs to be nice as well, but we have to live together, and the best way is for me to be unable to hear them. The outside needs to be nice, but making inside unpleasant doesn't accomplish that.
tekknik 3y ago
> The beauty of the US is that people have choices, and aren't pigeonholed into someone else's idea of "enjoyable". For now, not to long ago the left seemed adamant about forcing everyone into sprawling concrete jungles. I give it a few more years at most before they’re back at it pushing to cancel cars and force people to move to high rises.

erikaww 3y ago

I think you got it backwards. Cities now only build these subury sfh highway parking lot hellscapes and ban anything remotely dense So everyone is pigeonholed into something you want

tekknik 3y ago
density can be hugely detrimental to climate change if the city isn’t built in a green way, which no US city currently is and will likely not be in your lifetime. under the guise that your desire to live in a highly dense climate wasteland, by 2035 we should require either everybody move away from city centers, or require cities be zero emission. your decisions are affecting me, isn’t that the norm now?
- earthling8118 3y ago
  If we can't make the more efficient cities sustainable, why in the world would it be possible to do the same thing with everyone spread out?

marssaxman 3y ago

There really are not plenty of places in the US where you can live a good, urban, non-car-oriented life, and you can tell that is true because the ones which do exist tend to be very expensive, showing that they are in high demand. You clearly do not desire an urban lifestyle, and I won't try to change your mind about that, but those of us who do want urban living generally don't find that our choices are either plentiful or affordable.

trimethylpurine 3y ago
I think it's because urbanites keep getting suckered into letting builders do "condensed affordable housing" under the false premise that more housing means cheaper housing. Obviously that would only be true if the units were owned by competitors. Where one contractor owns all the units they set the prices, and they have no reason to make them "affordable." Just condensed.
- recursive 3y ago
  > they have no reason to make them "affordable." The money they make is {rent} × {units rented}. The reason they don't set rent to $1billion is that they will rent zero of them. I think this shows that they do have a reason to lower prices, at least at some range.
  - trimethylpurine 3y ago
    Sure so long as the assumption is that they aren't cheating. But apparently Congress thinks they are. Hence the lawsuits.
- adrianN 3y ago
  Supply and demand would like to have a word with you.
  - trimethylpurine 3y ago
    Congress would like to have a word with contractors about "supply and demand." https://www.wyden.senate.gov/news/press-releases/wyden-and-welch-introduce-legislation-to-crack-down-on-companies-that-inflate-rents-with-price-fixing-algorithms https://www.wyden.senate.gov/news/press-releases/wyden-and-w...
- trimethylpurine 3y ago
  For the downvoters, nice of you to hope I'm wrong but unfortunately: https://www.wyden.senate.gov/news/press-releases/wyden-and-welch-introduce-legislation-to-crack-down-on-companies-that-inflate-rents-with-price-fixing-algorithms https://www.wyden.senate.gov/news/press-releases/wyden-and-w... Honestly who is downvoting this anyway? Do you work for big contractors or just like unaffordable housing as long as it's condensed? Evil much?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

jamil7 3y ago

> The beauty of the US is that people have choices This is backwards, you’ve got no choices in a lot of US cities other than to drive.

HEmanZ 3y ago

Do you have experience living in any variety of urban areas in first world countries outside of the US? Have you been to many cities in the US? I don’t think you can possibly have done either of these and still think the US has any urbanism. And literally all most moderate urbanists ask for is “please lower regulations so that the free market can build what some of us want and I can actually have a choice.”

shiroiuma 3y ago
>Do you have experience living in any variety of urban areas in first world countries outside of the US? The vast, vast majority of Americans have never even been outside the US (except maybe to Canada, and possibly Mexican tourist spots), let alone lived outside the US in a first-world country, and this includes the OP and most people on HN. It's why reading comments on urbanism on forums like this is both entertaining (because it's so wrong and US-centric) and depressing.
- sebastos 3y ago
  Most Americans on hackernews have never been outside of the US? That strikes me as a near impossibility. Evidence?
  - jhbadger 3y ago
    There are only 160 million US passports in circulation (out of a population of 330 million. So roughly half. Of course HN people tend to be middle class or higher so they'd more likely be in that 50%. But still, the US is huge (roughly the size of Europe (Europe is approximately 10,180,000 sq km, while United States is approximately 9,833,517 sq km). There's plenty of places to go in the US without needing to go elsewhere. And look at the tiny passport numbers in the 1990s! That's because before 9/11 you didn't need one to go to Canada or Mexico if you had other identification (like a driver's license) showing you were from the US. I've heard that you can still go to Canada that way if you drive rather than fly, but I haven't tried it. https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/about-us/reports-and-statistics.html/ https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/about-us/reports-...

bertil 3y ago

The most common criticism I hear against cities is that they are loud. Cities aren't loud; cars are loud. You experienced a bad compromise of having high density of a city and the high car ownership of suburbia. Like a "stroad," a road that is trying to be a street, it doesn't work. Try to spend a week in a place with walkable density and no cars: Amsterdam, Oslo, or closer to US, Disney Land.

SoftTalker 3y ago
Cars aren't that loud. Trucks, buses, and trains are loud, and that is what you have a lot of in urban areas.
- fragmede 3y ago
  Thing is, we can build better buildings that are more resistant to noise pollution, regardless of the source. If I can't hear my neighbors, then I can totally ignore them. Which makes it livable.
  - dns_snek 3y ago
    The problem with this is that it reinforces the notion that you "live" inside and only go outside when you need to get somewhere. How are you ever going to enjoy a nice street-side cup of coffee in peace? Or take a walk around your neighborhood? Or engage in any outdoor social activity? If you allow the outside to be unpleasant, then people are increasingly going to stay inside which has negative societal ramifications.
    - fragmede 3y ago
      I think we can agree that not being woken up by your neighbors drunkenly blasting music at 3am is preferable to the alternative. But people should be able to live their lives and if they want to celebrate a big win at work or whatever, as long as it doesn't bother me, who am I to say they shouldn't at 3am on a Wednesday? Yes the outside needs to be nice as well, but we have to live together, and the best way is for me to be unable to hear them. The outside needs to be nice, but making inside unpleasant doesn't accomplish that.

tekknik 3y ago

> The beauty of the US is that people have choices, and aren't pigeonholed into someone else's idea of "enjoyable". For now, not to long ago the left seemed adamant about forcing everyone into sprawling concrete jungles. I give it a few more years at most before they’re back at it pushing to cancel cars and force people to move to high rises.