5 ms·

What does this have to do with TaaS, or right to repair? Just because it has tons of sensors doesn't mean they shouldn't be replacable

iancmceachern 3y ago
They're not really tractors. They sell land prep, crop sowing, and harvesting solutions. It's not like a car. These things are used for a few weeks a year, and if they don't do their job during that time the farm looses all their income for the year. A better way to think of them is like construction equipment that you rent. Even big construction companies rent their equipment.
- idiotsecant 3y ago
  This comment still doesn't answer parent question. I design critical infrastructure control systems for a living. Every single component of my systems is user servicable and replaceable with an alternative COTS available component with a little bit of work. There is literally no reason a tractor can't also do that. Other than market moats and rent seeking.
  - mrangle 3y ago
    Rent seeking is right. Farmers shouldn't be subjected to landlord economics via their equipment. That is, equipment cost shouldn't scale simply to eat farming profit (as rent costs quickly rise to eat rising incomes). I'd want to see the numbers on exaclty how much supposed always-up farming equipment saves in crop production, compared to farmers that don't use it. In fact, I know for certain that the most productive farmland in the US, per area unit, is least likely to use motorized equipment of any kind. And when they do it isn't equipment on par with John Deere.
    - philwelch 3y ago
      > In fact, I know for certain that the most productive farmland in the US, per area unit, is least likely to use motorized equipment of any kind. Isn’t this exactly what you’d expect? Motorized equipment is for working vast amounts of farmland as efficiently as possible, so the only farmland that would be worked by hand would have to be much more lucrative in comparison.
    - LudwigNagasena 3y ago
      > Farmers shouldn't be subjected to landlord economics via their equipment. That’s a funny way to phrase it considering that many farmers are landlords.
      - rangerelf 3y ago
        Landlords are landlords, farmers are farmers. If you're renting a zillion acres to someone that grows corn or wheat on it, you're not a farmer, your a landlord; the renter is the farmer.
        LudwigNagasena 3y ago
        If you own a zillion acres and someone grows corn or wheat on it without renting the land, you're a farmer and they are a farmworker.
- Larrikin 3y ago
  Why can't the farm have the server on premise instead of needing a subscription. So somebody can say they're meeting their KPIs and request more money?
  - NotSammyHagar 3y ago
    Because then they can’t control you and extract more money. John Deere is the worst.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - throwaway11460 3y ago
    I sell software and services to farmers. Running an on premises server that their business depends on is way beyond their capabilities. Our company tried that, it failed horribly, and the farmers blamed us. They want us to provide it as a service that always works, however it's made they don't care, just pay.
- NotSammyHagar 3y ago
  If I can’t drive to work, I won’t be paid, i’ll lose all my income. Thus, somehow the car company should prevent me from repairing my car, working with any independent qualified garage?
  - blackoil 3y ago
    You'll lose all the income of that day or week. Farmer will lose months of income.
    - NotSammyHagar 3y ago
      And you help the farmer by preventing them from fixing their own vehicles and equipment? Somehow we seem to be talking from different worlds. If you are worried about people losing potential to use their equipment at an important time, then (this will sound crazy!) let them fix their own equipment.
  - timschmidt 3y ago
    They tried. Independent auto repair shops across the country sued and lobbied to save their businesses. "On the last day of California's legislative session in 2000, Governor Gray Davis signed into law what had come to be known as "OBD-II." The new law expanded the OBD service information requirements in California by directing car companies to make all manuals and technical service bulletins Internet-accessible, supply tools, and offer training to all non-dealer service companies in the state." http://fbaum.unc.edu/lobby/_107th/093_OBD_Service_Info/frameset_obd.html http://fbaum.unc.edu/lobby/_107th/093_OBD_Service_Info/frame...
    - dcplaya 3y ago
      EVs are currently exempt from this! We need OBD regulations to be updated for reflect these new technologies. I think hydrogen vehicles are also exempt.
      - NotSammyHagar 3y ago
- wongarsu 3y ago
  > if they don't do their job during that time the farm looses all their income for the year. That's exactly why farmers push for right-to-repair. The old model of "each farmer can repair their tractor, or at least jury-rig it to work for a week" was much more scalable than John Deere somehow having enough staff and service partners to handle anything that goes wrong in those couple of weeks, and then having these people mostly idle the rest of the year. Of course at the same time newer tractors are much more capable, and allow a farmer to be much more efficient. But for a country it's also somewhat risky to put a large part of their food supply behind a single point of failure
- pasabagi 3y ago
  Farmers use their tractors year round, though? I see what you're saying vis-a-vis specific sprayers, ploughs, or even a combine harvester, but tractors are in pretty continuous use.
  - arwineap 3y ago
    Yes, I feel that the commenter suggesting they are "not like a car" is mistaken. I grew up in an AG community but my family was not doing crops so I don't have first hand knowledge They are mostly a utility truck used quite often, and 2-3 times a year they hook up the expensive add-ons to do the big work
- easywood 3y ago
  They're not really cars. They sell navigational, entertainment- and seat-heating solutions. These things are used a few hours each day. A better way to think of them is like a transportation solution that you rent. Even big unrelated companies rent things.

iancmceachern 3y ago

They're not really tractors. They sell land prep, crop sowing, and harvesting solutions. It's not like a car. These things are used for a few weeks a year, and if they don't do their job during that time the farm looses all their income for the year. A better way to think of them is like construction equipment that you rent. Even big construction companies rent their equipment.

idiotsecant 3y ago
This comment still doesn't answer parent question. I design critical infrastructure control systems for a living. Every single component of my systems is user servicable and replaceable with an alternative COTS available component with a little bit of work. There is literally no reason a tractor can't also do that. Other than market moats and rent seeking.
- mrangle 3y ago
  Rent seeking is right. Farmers shouldn't be subjected to landlord economics via their equipment. That is, equipment cost shouldn't scale simply to eat farming profit (as rent costs quickly rise to eat rising incomes). I'd want to see the numbers on exaclty how much supposed always-up farming equipment saves in crop production, compared to farmers that don't use it. In fact, I know for certain that the most productive farmland in the US, per area unit, is least likely to use motorized equipment of any kind. And when they do it isn't equipment on par with John Deere.
  - philwelch 3y ago
    > In fact, I know for certain that the most productive farmland in the US, per area unit, is least likely to use motorized equipment of any kind. Isn’t this exactly what you’d expect? Motorized equipment is for working vast amounts of farmland as efficiently as possible, so the only farmland that would be worked by hand would have to be much more lucrative in comparison.
  - LudwigNagasena 3y ago
    > Farmers shouldn't be subjected to landlord economics via their equipment. That’s a funny way to phrase it considering that many farmers are landlords.
    - rangerelf 3y ago
      Landlords are landlords, farmers are farmers. If you're renting a zillion acres to someone that grows corn or wheat on it, you're not a farmer, your a landlord; the renter is the farmer.
      - LudwigNagasena 3y ago
        If you own a zillion acres and someone grows corn or wheat on it without renting the land, you're a farmer and they are a farmworker.
Larrikin 3y ago
Why can't the farm have the server on premise instead of needing a subscription. So somebody can say they're meeting their KPIs and request more money?
- NotSammyHagar 3y ago
  Because then they can’t control you and extract more money. John Deere is the worst.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- throwaway11460 3y ago
  I sell software and services to farmers. Running an on premises server that their business depends on is way beyond their capabilities. Our company tried that, it failed horribly, and the farmers blamed us. They want us to provide it as a service that always works, however it's made they don't care, just pay.
NotSammyHagar 3y ago
If I can’t drive to work, I won’t be paid, i’ll lose all my income. Thus, somehow the car company should prevent me from repairing my car, working with any independent qualified garage?
- blackoil 3y ago
  You'll lose all the income of that day or week. Farmer will lose months of income.
  - NotSammyHagar 3y ago
    And you help the farmer by preventing them from fixing their own vehicles and equipment? Somehow we seem to be talking from different worlds. If you are worried about people losing potential to use their equipment at an important time, then (this will sound crazy!) let them fix their own equipment.
- timschmidt 3y ago
  They tried. Independent auto repair shops across the country sued and lobbied to save their businesses. "On the last day of California's legislative session in 2000, Governor Gray Davis signed into law what had come to be known as "OBD-II." The new law expanded the OBD service information requirements in California by directing car companies to make all manuals and technical service bulletins Internet-accessible, supply tools, and offer training to all non-dealer service companies in the state." http://fbaum.unc.edu/lobby/_107th/093_OBD_Service_Info/frameset_obd.html http://fbaum.unc.edu/lobby/_107th/093_OBD_Service_Info/frame...
  - dcplaya 3y ago
    EVs are currently exempt from this! We need OBD regulations to be updated for reflect these new technologies. I think hydrogen vehicles are also exempt.
    - NotSammyHagar 3y ago
wongarsu 3y ago
> if they don't do their job during that time the farm looses all their income for the year. That's exactly why farmers push for right-to-repair. The old model of "each farmer can repair their tractor, or at least jury-rig it to work for a week" was much more scalable than John Deere somehow having enough staff and service partners to handle anything that goes wrong in those couple of weeks, and then having these people mostly idle the rest of the year. Of course at the same time newer tractors are much more capable, and allow a farmer to be much more efficient. But for a country it's also somewhat risky to put a large part of their food supply behind a single point of failure
pasabagi 3y ago
Farmers use their tractors year round, though? I see what you're saying vis-a-vis specific sprayers, ploughs, or even a combine harvester, but tractors are in pretty continuous use.
- arwineap 3y ago
  Yes, I feel that the commenter suggesting they are "not like a car" is mistaken. I grew up in an AG community but my family was not doing crops so I don't have first hand knowledge They are mostly a utility truck used quite often, and 2-3 times a year they hook up the expensive add-ons to do the big work
easywood 3y ago
They're not really cars. They sell navigational, entertainment- and seat-heating solutions. These things are used a few hours each day. A better way to think of them is like a transportation solution that you rent. Even big unrelated companies rent things.