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I don't think you know that much about modern tractors. This headline is only surprisingly to people who still think of John Deere as an old school tractor comp

I don't think you know that much about modern tractors. This headline is only surprisingly to people who still think of John Deere as an old school tractor company. Modern day tractors have tons of sensors on them that are always connected to make sure any failing part can be detected and fixed before it breaks, basically or actually do drive themselves, and likely have as much or more tech in then as any modern car.

monkaiju 3y ago
That sounds bad still... Like it should be undone and they should be able to function locally.
mathgradthrow 3y ago
Somehow this comment hasn't sold me on TaaS.
arwineap 3y ago
What does this have to do with TaaS, or right to repair? Just because it has tons of sensors doesn't mean they shouldn't be replacable
- iancmceachern 3y ago
  They're not really tractors. They sell land prep, crop sowing, and harvesting solutions. It's not like a car. These things are used for a few weeks a year, and if they don't do their job during that time the farm looses all their income for the year. A better way to think of them is like construction equipment that you rent. Even big construction companies rent their equipment.
  - idiotsecant 3y ago
    This comment still doesn't answer parent question. I design critical infrastructure control systems for a living. Every single component of my systems is user servicable and replaceable with an alternative COTS available component with a little bit of work. There is literally no reason a tractor can't also do that. Other than market moats and rent seeking.
    - mrangle 3y ago
      Rent seeking is right. Farmers shouldn't be subjected to landlord economics via their equipment. That is, equipment cost shouldn't scale simply to eat farming profit (as rent costs quickly rise to eat rising incomes). I'd want to see the numbers on exaclty how much supposed always-up farming equipment saves in crop production, compared to farmers that don't use it. In fact, I know for certain that the most productive farmland in the US, per area unit, is least likely to use motorized equipment of any kind. And when they do it isn't equipment on par with John Deere.
      - philwelch 3y ago
        > In fact, I know for certain that the most productive farmland in the US, per area unit, is least likely to use motorized equipment of any kind. Isn’t this exactly what you’d expect? Motorized equipment is for working vast amounts of farmland as efficiently as possible, so the only farmland that would be worked by hand would have to be much more lucrative in comparison.
      - LudwigNagasena 3y ago
        > Farmers shouldn't be subjected to landlord economics via their equipment. That’s a funny way to phrase it considering that many farmers are landlords.
        rangerelf 3y ago
        Landlords are landlords, farmers are farmers. If you're renting a zillion acres to someone that grows corn or wheat on it, you're not a farmer, your a landlord; the renter is the farmer.
        LudwigNagasena 3y ago
        If you own a zillion acres and someone grows corn or wheat on it without renting the land, you're a farmer and they are a farmworker.
  - Larrikin 3y ago
    Why can't the farm have the server on premise instead of needing a subscription. So somebody can say they're meeting their KPIs and request more money?
    - NotSammyHagar 3y ago
      Because then they can’t control you and extract more money. John Deere is the worst.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - throwaway11460 3y ago
      I sell software and services to farmers. Running an on premises server that their business depends on is way beyond their capabilities. Our company tried that, it failed horribly, and the farmers blamed us. They want us to provide it as a service that always works, however it's made they don't care, just pay.
  - NotSammyHagar 3y ago
    If I can’t drive to work, I won’t be paid, i’ll lose all my income. Thus, somehow the car company should prevent me from repairing my car, working with any independent qualified garage?
    - blackoil 3y ago
      You'll lose all the income of that day or week. Farmer will lose months of income.
      - NotSammyHagar 3y ago
        And you help the farmer by preventing them from fixing their own vehicles and equipment? Somehow we seem to be talking from different worlds. If you are worried about people losing potential to use their equipment at an important time, then (this will sound crazy!) let them fix their own equipment.
    - timschmidt 3y ago
      They tried. Independent auto repair shops across the country sued and lobbied to save their businesses. "On the last day of California's legislative session in 2000, Governor Gray Davis signed into law what had come to be known as "OBD-II." The new law expanded the OBD service information requirements in California by directing car companies to make all manuals and technical service bulletins Internet-accessible, supply tools, and offer training to all non-dealer service companies in the state." http://fbaum.unc.edu/lobby/_107th/093_OBD_Service_Info/frameset_obd.html http://fbaum.unc.edu/lobby/_107th/093_OBD_Service_Info/frame...
      - dcplaya 3y ago
        EVs are currently exempt from this! We need OBD regulations to be updated for reflect these new technologies. I think hydrogen vehicles are also exempt.
        NotSammyHagar 3y ago
  - wongarsu 3y ago
    > if they don't do their job during that time the farm looses all their income for the year. That's exactly why farmers push for right-to-repair. The old model of "each farmer can repair their tractor, or at least jury-rig it to work for a week" was much more scalable than John Deere somehow having enough staff and service partners to handle anything that goes wrong in those couple of weeks, and then having these people mostly idle the rest of the year. Of course at the same time newer tractors are much more capable, and allow a farmer to be much more efficient. But for a country it's also somewhat risky to put a large part of their food supply behind a single point of failure
  - pasabagi 3y ago
    Farmers use their tractors year round, though? I see what you're saying vis-a-vis specific sprayers, ploughs, or even a combine harvester, but tractors are in pretty continuous use.
    - arwineap 3y ago
      Yes, I feel that the commenter suggesting they are "not like a car" is mistaken. I grew up in an AG community but my family was not doing crops so I don't have first hand knowledge They are mostly a utility truck used quite often, and 2-3 times a year they hook up the expensive add-ons to do the big work
  - easywood 3y ago
    They're not really cars. They sell navigational, entertainment- and seat-heating solutions. These things are used a few hours each day. A better way to think of them is like a transportation solution that you rent. Even big unrelated companies rent things.
advisedwang 3y ago
I don't think the parent comment necessarily misses that online connectivity is delivering a lot of features, value and ultimately yield. These improvements come with a downside of the risk of outages. The comment is highlighting that John Deere is deliberately increasing this risk so that they can keep farms maximally dependent on the company.
- randomdata 3y ago
  > These improvements come with a downside of the risk of outages. Which is why the current use of land tower connectivity is being expanded to use satellite service, providing greater redundancy and improved coverage. That reduces the risk of outage. If you want no chance of outage on a modern tractor, you are going to have to find yourself a time machine and go way back in time. That ship sailed decades ago.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - advisedwang 3y ago
    My read on mathgradthrow's comment was that it isn't concerned about outages caused by the network being down, but by more existential things like John Deer going bust, being a victim of cyberwar and so on. Of course he never says that so that's probably my own politics and fears coming into play.
    - mathgradthrow 3y ago
      that's correct, but I thought I was reasonably explicit.
    - randomdata 3y ago
      Well, even the ancient (John Deere) equipment isn't going to work when John Deere goes bust. Farm equipment breaks constantly. Where are the parts going to come from? John Deere bought out the only only full-line after market parts manufacturer several years ago, so if you are eyeing up that secondary market, think again. I mean, sure, you can go to your local machine shop to get custom parts made. But you can also go to your local controls shop to get custom computers made. There are ways to deal with that – not the end of the world, just annoying. Also, John Deere has been sending one-way data via satellite to their tractors since the 1990s and have had two-way connectivity via cell networks since the 2000s, should cyber warfare ever break out... So, it's not clear why he is concerned now all of a sudden. The concern is not unwarranted exactly, but we've already been thinking about it for decades to centuries. What is it about augmenting tower-based connectivity with satellite-based connectivity that instills a new fear?

monkaiju 3y ago

That sounds bad still... Like it should be undone and they should be able to function locally.

mathgradthrow 3y ago

Somehow this comment hasn't sold me on TaaS.

arwineap 3y ago

What does this have to do with TaaS, or right to repair? Just because it has tons of sensors doesn't mean they shouldn't be replacable

iancmceachern 3y ago
They're not really tractors. They sell land prep, crop sowing, and harvesting solutions. It's not like a car. These things are used for a few weeks a year, and if they don't do their job during that time the farm looses all their income for the year. A better way to think of them is like construction equipment that you rent. Even big construction companies rent their equipment.
- idiotsecant 3y ago
  This comment still doesn't answer parent question. I design critical infrastructure control systems for a living. Every single component of my systems is user servicable and replaceable with an alternative COTS available component with a little bit of work. There is literally no reason a tractor can't also do that. Other than market moats and rent seeking.
  - mrangle 3y ago
    Rent seeking is right. Farmers shouldn't be subjected to landlord economics via their equipment. That is, equipment cost shouldn't scale simply to eat farming profit (as rent costs quickly rise to eat rising incomes). I'd want to see the numbers on exaclty how much supposed always-up farming equipment saves in crop production, compared to farmers that don't use it. In fact, I know for certain that the most productive farmland in the US, per area unit, is least likely to use motorized equipment of any kind. And when they do it isn't equipment on par with John Deere.
    - philwelch 3y ago
      > In fact, I know for certain that the most productive farmland in the US, per area unit, is least likely to use motorized equipment of any kind. Isn’t this exactly what you’d expect? Motorized equipment is for working vast amounts of farmland as efficiently as possible, so the only farmland that would be worked by hand would have to be much more lucrative in comparison.
    - LudwigNagasena 3y ago
      > Farmers shouldn't be subjected to landlord economics via their equipment. That’s a funny way to phrase it considering that many farmers are landlords.
      - rangerelf 3y ago
        Landlords are landlords, farmers are farmers. If you're renting a zillion acres to someone that grows corn or wheat on it, you're not a farmer, your a landlord; the renter is the farmer.
        LudwigNagasena 3y ago
        If you own a zillion acres and someone grows corn or wheat on it without renting the land, you're a farmer and they are a farmworker.
- Larrikin 3y ago
  Why can't the farm have the server on premise instead of needing a subscription. So somebody can say they're meeting their KPIs and request more money?
  - NotSammyHagar 3y ago
    Because then they can’t control you and extract more money. John Deere is the worst.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - throwaway11460 3y ago
    I sell software and services to farmers. Running an on premises server that their business depends on is way beyond their capabilities. Our company tried that, it failed horribly, and the farmers blamed us. They want us to provide it as a service that always works, however it's made they don't care, just pay.
- NotSammyHagar 3y ago
  If I can’t drive to work, I won’t be paid, i’ll lose all my income. Thus, somehow the car company should prevent me from repairing my car, working with any independent qualified garage?
  - blackoil 3y ago
    You'll lose all the income of that day or week. Farmer will lose months of income.
    - NotSammyHagar 3y ago
      And you help the farmer by preventing them from fixing their own vehicles and equipment? Somehow we seem to be talking from different worlds. If you are worried about people losing potential to use their equipment at an important time, then (this will sound crazy!) let them fix their own equipment.
  - timschmidt 3y ago
    They tried. Independent auto repair shops across the country sued and lobbied to save their businesses. "On the last day of California's legislative session in 2000, Governor Gray Davis signed into law what had come to be known as "OBD-II." The new law expanded the OBD service information requirements in California by directing car companies to make all manuals and technical service bulletins Internet-accessible, supply tools, and offer training to all non-dealer service companies in the state." http://fbaum.unc.edu/lobby/_107th/093_OBD_Service_Info/frameset_obd.html http://fbaum.unc.edu/lobby/_107th/093_OBD_Service_Info/frame...
    - dcplaya 3y ago
      EVs are currently exempt from this! We need OBD regulations to be updated for reflect these new technologies. I think hydrogen vehicles are also exempt.
      - NotSammyHagar 3y ago
- wongarsu 3y ago
  > if they don't do their job during that time the farm looses all their income for the year. That's exactly why farmers push for right-to-repair. The old model of "each farmer can repair their tractor, or at least jury-rig it to work for a week" was much more scalable than John Deere somehow having enough staff and service partners to handle anything that goes wrong in those couple of weeks, and then having these people mostly idle the rest of the year. Of course at the same time newer tractors are much more capable, and allow a farmer to be much more efficient. But for a country it's also somewhat risky to put a large part of their food supply behind a single point of failure
- pasabagi 3y ago
  Farmers use their tractors year round, though? I see what you're saying vis-a-vis specific sprayers, ploughs, or even a combine harvester, but tractors are in pretty continuous use.
  - arwineap 3y ago
    Yes, I feel that the commenter suggesting they are "not like a car" is mistaken. I grew up in an AG community but my family was not doing crops so I don't have first hand knowledge They are mostly a utility truck used quite often, and 2-3 times a year they hook up the expensive add-ons to do the big work
- easywood 3y ago
  They're not really cars. They sell navigational, entertainment- and seat-heating solutions. These things are used a few hours each day. A better way to think of them is like a transportation solution that you rent. Even big unrelated companies rent things.

advisedwang 3y ago

I don't think the parent comment necessarily misses that online connectivity is delivering a lot of features, value and ultimately yield. These improvements come with a downside of the risk of outages. The comment is highlighting that John Deere is deliberately increasing this risk so that they can keep farms maximally dependent on the company.

randomdata 3y ago
> These improvements come with a downside of the risk of outages. Which is why the current use of land tower connectivity is being expanded to use satellite service, providing greater redundancy and improved coverage. That reduces the risk of outage. If you want no chance of outage on a modern tractor, you are going to have to find yourself a time machine and go way back in time. That ship sailed decades ago.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- advisedwang 3y ago
  My read on mathgradthrow's comment was that it isn't concerned about outages caused by the network being down, but by more existential things like John Deer going bust, being a victim of cyberwar and so on. Of course he never says that so that's probably my own politics and fears coming into play.
  - mathgradthrow 3y ago
    that's correct, but I thought I was reasonably explicit.
  - randomdata 3y ago
    Well, even the ancient (John Deere) equipment isn't going to work when John Deere goes bust. Farm equipment breaks constantly. Where are the parts going to come from? John Deere bought out the only only full-line after market parts manufacturer several years ago, so if you are eyeing up that secondary market, think again. I mean, sure, you can go to your local machine shop to get custom parts made. But you can also go to your local controls shop to get custom computers made. There are ways to deal with that – not the end of the world, just annoying. Also, John Deere has been sending one-way data via satellite to their tractors since the 1990s and have had two-way connectivity via cell networks since the 2000s, should cyber warfare ever break out... So, it's not clear why he is concerned now all of a sudden. The concern is not unwarranted exactly, but we've already been thinking about it for decades to centuries. What is it about augmenting tower-based connectivity with satellite-based connectivity that instills a new fear?