4 ms·

Punishing crime is also necessary. El Salvador provides the model here: they locked up all their criminals, and are now using prison labor to build hospitals, s

Punishing crime is also necessary. El Salvador provides the model here: they locked up all their criminals, and are now using prison labor to build hospitals, schools, water treatment plants, and other public works projects to benefit all honest citizens. The result: crime rate has fallen off a cliff, and the economy is booming. https://twitter.com/nayibbukele/status/1751748220156268626 https://twitter.com/nayibbukele/status/1751748220156268626

wolverine876 3y ago
> crime rate has fallen off a cliff, and the economy is booming. Sounds like a politician's talking point. I'd be interested in some credible sources (not Twitter) if you have them.
- Georgelemental 3y ago
  Homicide rate down over 95% since Bukele took office in 2019: https://elsalvadorinfo.net/homicide-rate-in-el-salvador/ https://elsalvadorinfo.net/homicide-rate-in-el-salvador/ The economic picture is less clear, due to the massive confounding factor of COVID crash and recovery. But the overall trend over Bukele's presidency is clearly positive, with 2019-2022 per-capita growth rate nearly twice the 2015-2018 rate: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=SV&start=2015 https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?location...
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    Thanks for the World Bank data in particular. Looking up Bukele it looks like right-wing dictatorship, firing the attorney general and judges, deploying soldiers to the legislature, etc.
    - Georgelemental 3y ago
      Freedom of expression remains intact (no political prisoners) and elections are free and fair. Separation of powers is lacking, which is a risk long-term. But for now, the regime clearly has democratic legitimacy (highest approval ratings in the Western hemisphere!) This NYT article has testimonies from citizens about how much more free they feel now: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/09/world/americas/el-salvador-gangs.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/09/world/americas/el-salvado...
      - wolverine876 3y ago
        > the regime clearly has democratic legitimacy (highest approval ratings in the Western hemisphere!) Approval ratings, however accurate, are not at all democratic legitimacy, and those and testimonials are right out of the dictator's playbook. Putin, Mussolini, Modi, etc. etc. can say all the same. Democracy - in any meaningful sense - is more than mob rule (which is popular rule!), or rule by a (supposedly) enlightened dictator. It is rule of law, and protects the rights and self-determination of everyone, including the unpopular.
        Georgelemental 3y ago
        > Democracy - in any meaningful sense - is more than mob rule No, "democracy" literally is mob rule, or at least that's how the term has been used for most of its history. > Protects the rights and self-determination of everyone On that front, El Salvador is doing better than ever. It used to be, the rights of the 2% of gang members were respected, while the 98% of honest citizens had no rights and lived in fear. Now, the 98% have full rights. That's +96% people with full rights
        wolverine876 3y ago
        I'm sure you know that democracies, in reality, actually have rule of law and universal rights. > It used to be, the rights of the 2% of gang members were respected, while the 98% of honest citizens had no rights and lived in fear. Now, the 98% have full rights. That's +96% people with full rights The textbook language of the dictator and populist oppressor. Maybe it will be different this time, but that's a huge risk to take.
        Georgelemental 3y ago
        > I'm sure you know that democracies, in reality, actually have rule of law and universal rights. "Democracies", in reality, are usually some sort of representative constitutional republic that contains deliberately anti-democratic elements (an unelected judiciary, for example). Pure mob rule doesn't work, so in practice it's always diluted. > Maybe it will be different this time, but that's a huge risk to take. It is a risk, I agree. All regime changes are risky, as power inevitably ends up concentrated in one person or small group for at least a short period, so a lot ends up riding on their personal competence and morals. So far this one is working out extremely well, hopefully the trend will continue.

wolverine876 3y ago

> crime rate has fallen off a cliff, and the economy is booming. Sounds like a politician's talking point. I'd be interested in some credible sources (not Twitter) if you have them.

Georgelemental 3y ago
Homicide rate down over 95% since Bukele took office in 2019: https://elsalvadorinfo.net/homicide-rate-in-el-salvador/ https://elsalvadorinfo.net/homicide-rate-in-el-salvador/ The economic picture is less clear, due to the massive confounding factor of COVID crash and recovery. But the overall trend over Bukele's presidency is clearly positive, with 2019-2022 per-capita growth rate nearly twice the 2015-2018 rate: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=SV&start=2015 https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?location...
- wolverine876 3y ago
  Thanks for the World Bank data in particular. Looking up Bukele it looks like right-wing dictatorship, firing the attorney general and judges, deploying soldiers to the legislature, etc.
  - Georgelemental 3y ago
    Freedom of expression remains intact (no political prisoners) and elections are free and fair. Separation of powers is lacking, which is a risk long-term. But for now, the regime clearly has democratic legitimacy (highest approval ratings in the Western hemisphere!) This NYT article has testimonies from citizens about how much more free they feel now: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/09/world/americas/el-salvador-gangs.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/09/world/americas/el-salvado...
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      > the regime clearly has democratic legitimacy (highest approval ratings in the Western hemisphere!) Approval ratings, however accurate, are not at all democratic legitimacy, and those and testimonials are right out of the dictator's playbook. Putin, Mussolini, Modi, etc. etc. can say all the same. Democracy - in any meaningful sense - is more than mob rule (which is popular rule!), or rule by a (supposedly) enlightened dictator. It is rule of law, and protects the rights and self-determination of everyone, including the unpopular.
      - Georgelemental 3y ago
        > Democracy - in any meaningful sense - is more than mob rule No, "democracy" literally is mob rule, or at least that's how the term has been used for most of its history. > Protects the rights and self-determination of everyone On that front, El Salvador is doing better than ever. It used to be, the rights of the 2% of gang members were respected, while the 98% of honest citizens had no rights and lived in fear. Now, the 98% have full rights. That's +96% people with full rights
        wolverine876 3y ago
        I'm sure you know that democracies, in reality, actually have rule of law and universal rights. > It used to be, the rights of the 2% of gang members were respected, while the 98% of honest citizens had no rights and lived in fear. Now, the 98% have full rights. That's +96% people with full rights The textbook language of the dictator and populist oppressor. Maybe it will be different this time, but that's a huge risk to take.
        Georgelemental 3y ago
        > I'm sure you know that democracies, in reality, actually have rule of law and universal rights. "Democracies", in reality, are usually some sort of representative constitutional republic that contains deliberately anti-democratic elements (an unelected judiciary, for example). Pure mob rule doesn't work, so in practice it's always diluted. > Maybe it will be different this time, but that's a huge risk to take. It is a risk, I agree. All regime changes are risky, as power inevitably ends up concentrated in one person or small group for at least a short period, so a lot ends up riding on their personal competence and morals. So far this one is working out extremely well, hopefully the trend will continue.