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It is of incredible strategic importance that tractors not become "online only". Some fucking John Deere licensing server should not become a single point of fa

It is of incredible strategic importance that tractors not become "online only". Some fucking John Deere licensing server should not become a single point of failure for the nations agriculture.

kube-system 3y ago
Already too late. Farmers already use quite a bit of connected technology in the field. Modern high-output farming and the cheap food we have really wouldn't be possible without it. e.g. https://www.smh.com.au/national/farmers-crippled-by-satellite-failure-as-gps-guided-tractors-grind-to-a-halt-20230418-p5d1de.html https://www.smh.com.au/national/farmers-crippled-by-satellit...
- mathgradthrow 3y ago
  GPS is ideally quite redundant, and the data from it is usable without an internet connection. GPS is fine.
  - kube-system 3y ago
    Civilian GPS is not accurate enough for precision farming which is why these tractor manufacturers in my above link were using Inmarsat L-band to transmit correction information in addition to using GPS. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarFire_(navigation_system) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarFire_(navigation_system)
    - mathgradthrow 3y ago
      I'm even less worried about the security of military GPS.
      - kube-system 3y ago
        I don't know what that has to do with this topic. Starfire (and similar) farm tractor guidance systems are not that. Zero farm tractors use military GPS.
    - sadhorse 3y ago
      It can also be done locally with a fixed base station.
  - sgtnoodle 3y ago
    I imagine a mostly autonomous land vehicle relying on GPS would also require RTK GPS, which does require an external source of the data. Some GPS receivers can receive that from satellites, but the data is encrypted and requires expensive commercial licenses or military grade equipment.
    - BenjiWiebe 3y ago
      You can generate your own correction data for GPS, using a fixed base station, and relaying the data over a radio link or through the cell network. Look up ArduSimple if interested how. Something like $400 IIRC (for the base station). Source: we are doing it, using AgOpenGPS (OSS autosteer) with RTK
      - sgtnoodle 3y ago
        Oh I know. I've plumbed RTCM3 streams over radios and cell networks aplenty as well. There's a real cost to setting up and maintaining a base station properly, though. Subscribing to a service is attractive if you're only operating a small fleet, which is sort of the point?
- NotSammyHagar 3y ago
  connected is fine, gps is fine, but that is all separate from not letting you work on your own equipment.
- tcmart14 3y ago
  That is fine and great. But there is a big difference between a farmer who has a system to, lets say set time for watering and can control, repair (the pipping for that system is run of the mill PVC and they can source parts from suppliers for other parts of the system), and operate each set of equipment without it needing to reach out to some company's API, but another piece of equipment the won't work if it can't phone home and proprietary parts that can't be gotten from a supplier.
  - kube-system 3y ago
    Supplier lock-in is definitely a concern I agree with. But many modern farms do make a fair use of external data that does inherently require an external connection.
    - tcmart14 3y ago
      And I think that is fine so long as it no longer becomes a requirement of the standard function of the equipment. I should be able to buy a tractor and use it as a tractor with a reduced feature set that doesn't rely on external systems, but it can still accomplish the base set of features a tractor needs, even if not optimal. And the parts the require external data are opt-in and not required for basic functionality. Which is the fear. You bought the tractor or piece of equipment, but it is useless without also all the other subscriptions. Taking the sprinkler. I make a sprinkler system. You buy the system and can work with with your own local manual settings, no extra fees, no external communication required. But you can pay me a, lets say $15/month subscription and I will control it using AI/ML and historical data to try to control it in a way to maximize it's use and output. I think that is fine so long as your allowed to cancel the subscription and set your own basic settings and it can operate. And most parts are easily sourced and replaceable.
      - kube-system 3y ago
        > And I think that is fine so long as it no longer becomes a requirement of the standard function of the equipment. Sometimes it is, not arbitrarily, but as a matter of how the technology works. For example, the link I posted above. Yes, those tractors can be manually driven like a 1980's farm tractor without guidance, but that's kind of impractical because profitably operating a farm often depends on those features.
AlwaysRock 3y ago
I don't think you know that much about modern tractors. This headline is only surprisingly to people who still think of John Deere as an old school tractor company. Modern day tractors have tons of sensors on them that are always connected to make sure any failing part can be detected and fixed before it breaks, basically or actually do drive themselves, and likely have as much or more tech in then as any modern car.
- monkaiju 3y ago
  That sounds bad still... Like it should be undone and they should be able to function locally.
- mathgradthrow 3y ago
  Somehow this comment hasn't sold me on TaaS.
- arwineap 3y ago
  What does this have to do with TaaS, or right to repair? Just because it has tons of sensors doesn't mean they shouldn't be replacable
  - iancmceachern 3y ago
    They're not really tractors. They sell land prep, crop sowing, and harvesting solutions. It's not like a car. These things are used for a few weeks a year, and if they don't do their job during that time the farm looses all their income for the year. A better way to think of them is like construction equipment that you rent. Even big construction companies rent their equipment.
    - idiotsecant 3y ago
      This comment still doesn't answer parent question. I design critical infrastructure control systems for a living. Every single component of my systems is user servicable and replaceable with an alternative COTS available component with a little bit of work. There is literally no reason a tractor can't also do that. Other than market moats and rent seeking.
bluGill 3y ago
Farmers do not want that. John Deere collects a lot of opt-in data from tractors. That is the owner of the tractors chooses to upload that data because they get value from it. If the tractor is not online or the GPS isn't working the farmer will stay home to fix things as the data is too valuable to risk not having it uploaded. (you can export the data to USB, but that is a hassle). Farmers who don't get a good cell signal of course do work without getting data uploaded, but they want the real time monitoring possible with an always on connection. I work for Deere, but don't speak for the company.
- idiotsecant 3y ago
  Lol farmers absolutely want their tractor to work when the cell network doesn't what are you talking about. Sounds like you might have drank a little too much of the company koolaid. It's not surprising, I know engineers at Deere and it sounds like quite a toxic environment.
  - bracketslash 3y ago
    nobody said that farmers don't want their tractors to work when the cell network doesn't.
  - sixstringtheory 3y ago
    > farmers absolutely want their tractor to work when the cell network doesn't Sounds like it works exactly the way you say it should: > Farmers who don't get a good cell signal of course do work without getting data uploaded
- NotSammyHagar 3y ago
  Those kinds of requirements are extremely anti-consumer. If farmers get benefit from that, then they will do it, pay you for it even. But making them do things is terrible. It’s just a way to control and get more money. It will take years but we will break through these coporate controls. Meanwhile, people will circulate hacks so they can fix their own equipment. With all due respect, you are wrong.
dogman144 3y ago
Yes. When you mix agricultural production capacity with access to the production via a data connection involved in the Ukraine war (as a quick example...), you'll get a war + day 1 bricked tractors. Scary thought, absolutely exposed to it.

It is of incredible strategic importance that tractors not become "online only". Some fucking John Deere licensing server should not become a single point of failure for the nations agriculture.

kube-system 3y ago

Already too late. Farmers already use quite a bit of connected technology in the field. Modern high-output farming and the cheap food we have really wouldn't be possible without it. e.g. https://www.smh.com.au/national/farmers-crippled-by-satellite-failure-as-gps-guided-tractors-grind-to-a-halt-20230418-p5d1de.html https://www.smh.com.au/national/farmers-crippled-by-satellit...

mathgradthrow 3y ago
GPS is ideally quite redundant, and the data from it is usable without an internet connection. GPS is fine.
- kube-system 3y ago
  Civilian GPS is not accurate enough for precision farming which is why these tractor manufacturers in my above link were using Inmarsat L-band to transmit correction information in addition to using GPS. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarFire_(navigation_system) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarFire_(navigation_system)
  - mathgradthrow 3y ago
    I'm even less worried about the security of military GPS.
    - kube-system 3y ago
      I don't know what that has to do with this topic. Starfire (and similar) farm tractor guidance systems are not that. Zero farm tractors use military GPS.
  - sadhorse 3y ago
    It can also be done locally with a fixed base station.
- sgtnoodle 3y ago
  I imagine a mostly autonomous land vehicle relying on GPS would also require RTK GPS, which does require an external source of the data. Some GPS receivers can receive that from satellites, but the data is encrypted and requires expensive commercial licenses or military grade equipment.
  - BenjiWiebe 3y ago
    You can generate your own correction data for GPS, using a fixed base station, and relaying the data over a radio link or through the cell network. Look up ArduSimple if interested how. Something like $400 IIRC (for the base station). Source: we are doing it, using AgOpenGPS (OSS autosteer) with RTK
    - sgtnoodle 3y ago
      Oh I know. I've plumbed RTCM3 streams over radios and cell networks aplenty as well. There's a real cost to setting up and maintaining a base station properly, though. Subscribing to a service is attractive if you're only operating a small fleet, which is sort of the point?
NotSammyHagar 3y ago
connected is fine, gps is fine, but that is all separate from not letting you work on your own equipment.
tcmart14 3y ago
That is fine and great. But there is a big difference between a farmer who has a system to, lets say set time for watering and can control, repair (the pipping for that system is run of the mill PVC and they can source parts from suppliers for other parts of the system), and operate each set of equipment without it needing to reach out to some company's API, but another piece of equipment the won't work if it can't phone home and proprietary parts that can't be gotten from a supplier.
- kube-system 3y ago
  Supplier lock-in is definitely a concern I agree with. But many modern farms do make a fair use of external data that does inherently require an external connection.
  - tcmart14 3y ago
    And I think that is fine so long as it no longer becomes a requirement of the standard function of the equipment. I should be able to buy a tractor and use it as a tractor with a reduced feature set that doesn't rely on external systems, but it can still accomplish the base set of features a tractor needs, even if not optimal. And the parts the require external data are opt-in and not required for basic functionality. Which is the fear. You bought the tractor or piece of equipment, but it is useless without also all the other subscriptions. Taking the sprinkler. I make a sprinkler system. You buy the system and can work with with your own local manual settings, no extra fees, no external communication required. But you can pay me a, lets say $15/month subscription and I will control it using AI/ML and historical data to try to control it in a way to maximize it's use and output. I think that is fine so long as your allowed to cancel the subscription and set your own basic settings and it can operate. And most parts are easily sourced and replaceable.
    - kube-system 3y ago
      > And I think that is fine so long as it no longer becomes a requirement of the standard function of the equipment. Sometimes it is, not arbitrarily, but as a matter of how the technology works. For example, the link I posted above. Yes, those tractors can be manually driven like a 1980's farm tractor without guidance, but that's kind of impractical because profitably operating a farm often depends on those features.

AlwaysRock 3y ago

I don't think you know that much about modern tractors. This headline is only surprisingly to people who still think of John Deere as an old school tractor company. Modern day tractors have tons of sensors on them that are always connected to make sure any failing part can be detected and fixed before it breaks, basically or actually do drive themselves, and likely have as much or more tech in then as any modern car.

monkaiju 3y ago
That sounds bad still... Like it should be undone and they should be able to function locally.
mathgradthrow 3y ago
Somehow this comment hasn't sold me on TaaS.
arwineap 3y ago
What does this have to do with TaaS, or right to repair? Just because it has tons of sensors doesn't mean they shouldn't be replacable
- iancmceachern 3y ago
  They're not really tractors. They sell land prep, crop sowing, and harvesting solutions. It's not like a car. These things are used for a few weeks a year, and if they don't do their job during that time the farm looses all their income for the year. A better way to think of them is like construction equipment that you rent. Even big construction companies rent their equipment.
  - idiotsecant 3y ago
    This comment still doesn't answer parent question. I design critical infrastructure control systems for a living. Every single component of my systems is user servicable and replaceable with an alternative COTS available component with a little bit of work. There is literally no reason a tractor can't also do that. Other than market moats and rent seeking.

bluGill 3y ago

Farmers do not want that. John Deere collects a lot of opt-in data from tractors. That is the owner of the tractors chooses to upload that data because they get value from it. If the tractor is not online or the GPS isn't working the farmer will stay home to fix things as the data is too valuable to risk not having it uploaded. (you can export the data to USB, but that is a hassle). Farmers who don't get a good cell signal of course do work without getting data uploaded, but they want the real time monitoring possible with an always on connection. I work for Deere, but don't speak for the company.

idiotsecant 3y ago
Lol farmers absolutely want their tractor to work when the cell network doesn't what are you talking about. Sounds like you might have drank a little too much of the company koolaid. It's not surprising, I know engineers at Deere and it sounds like quite a toxic environment.
- bracketslash 3y ago
  nobody said that farmers don't want their tractors to work when the cell network doesn't.
- sixstringtheory 3y ago
  > farmers absolutely want their tractor to work when the cell network doesn't Sounds like it works exactly the way you say it should: > Farmers who don't get a good cell signal of course do work without getting data uploaded
NotSammyHagar 3y ago
Those kinds of requirements are extremely anti-consumer. If farmers get benefit from that, then they will do it, pay you for it even. But making them do things is terrible. It’s just a way to control and get more money. It will take years but we will break through these coporate controls. Meanwhile, people will circulate hacks so they can fix their own equipment. With all due respect, you are wrong.

dogman144 3y ago

Yes. When you mix agricultural production capacity with access to the production via a data connection involved in the Ukraine war (as a quick example...), you'll get a war + day 1 bricked tractors. Scary thought, absolutely exposed to it.