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AI companies want to make completely unengineered systems with no systematic guarantee that they work or even knowledge of how they work, and then try to displa

by jprete 3y ago

AI companies want to make completely unengineered systems with no systematic guarantee that they work or even knowledge of how they work, and then try to displace as much human labor as possible in as many critical points of control as possible. This is literally the goal of anyone seeking AGI. In my view, stifling this is a benefit, not a drawback.

jMyles 3y ago
> try to displace as much human labor as possible > stifling this is a benefit I suppose this depends in part on how much value you place on keeping the world a laborious place for humans. Reducing the need for labor will almost certainly lead to more beauty in the world. If we aren't seeking a world where humans are freed from menial labor and so have bandwidth to make art and music, what are we actually seeking? Perhaps this needs to be defined first by the AI-luddites and then a more reasoned discussion can follow.
- jprete 3y ago
  This was a better argument when AI wasn't making art and music. EDIT: For what it's worth, no I don't want people to have to do menial labor or whatnot. I just see no reason to expect AGI to make people's lives better if those people have nothing to economically contribute.
  - jMyles 3y ago
    I'm also skeptical of the "took our jobs" argument with respect to making art and music. I think art and music is easier to make in the presence of AI.
    - johnnyanmac 3y ago
      Video game market already shows this future. Marketplaces become flooded with titles, developers spend more time marketing than making art. They get out gunned by the AAA studios and the remainders fight for scraps, with maybe 1-2 indie titles a year becoming breakout hits, and a dozen (out of thousands of titles) maybe getting a decent cult following. Success is controlled by algorithms and you need to minmax your SEO to even be noticed. It's not a future that benefits small entrepreneurs. And I think the last thing Music needs is even more artists putting out more generated much into the store.
      - jMyles 3y ago
        > They get out gunned by the AAA studios What does this even mean? Nobody was prevented from making a game; you are just describing the market dynamics of the previous human configuration, which of course are going to change along with the rest of this evolution. And in any case, it's a great time to be a gamer! So many awesome indy games every day. > And I think the last thing Music needs is even more artists putting out more generated much into the store. I mean... I look forward to other people making generated music, and who knows, maybe I'll give it a shot someday. How does it prevent you and I from making the music that speaks to us?
        johnnyanmac 3y ago
        >you are just describing the market dynamics of the previous human configuration, which of course are going to change along with the rest of this evolution. The same SEO optimized spam that riddles Google search applies to games as well. These asset flips and large studios and mobile games will do all the same tricks, except now they can make 20 games a year or more instead of 5. In short, it will be harder for an indie to stand out, and you as a gamer to find what you want to play. People already complain about steam being ridden with trash in their recommendations, this will accelerate it. You can call it "market dybanics" but it won't be one that benefits you nor me. >How does it prevent you and I from making the music that speaks to us? Put lack of talent, assumedly. Talent said spammers don't care about because they are just flooding the store and seeing what works, but talent what we would care about. Art is also in general not easy to "make for ourselves". We don't know what kind of art per se that we would or wouldn't appreciate without external exposure. By definition our own art can't really challenge our own beliefs. So we want to share those ideas with others. And that's where the trouble begins.
  - 2024throwaway 3y ago
    Sounds like the problem is not AI but a society that is structured so that people can only live comfortably if they are economically productive.
    - jprete 3y ago
      As I see it, we aren't going to make such a change in time to matter, so I left it out of my comment.
    - johnnyanmac 3y ago
      Well, yeah. In a post scarcity society with UBI I don't care how much AI is used as long as I have options. As it is, the economy is on the fall and everything is becoming more expensive. How am I supposed to sympathize with technology that is so far aimed at replacing jobs and having the robber barons on top gain even more money? They've long since burned their goodwill so those benefits aren't coming back to the working (or former working) class.
fallingknife 3y ago
No piece of technology has a systemic guarantee that it works.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  But that's what's being sold. And yes there is talks about using it as a lawyer or a prescriber of medicine. If you want to overextend that much you better be ready to deal with thr regulations. We don't want another Boeing in our hands.
  - fallingknife 3y ago
    Lawyers and doctors are nowhere near perfect, so that's a completely unreasonable standard. Medical mistakes kill 250K per year in the US (close to 10% of all deaths) so that shows you how effective these regulations are.
- jprete 3y ago
  If most technology breaks, someone can at least figure out why and fix it in future iterations. No-one is capable of doing that with an AI chatbot.

by jprete 3y ago

jMyles 3y ago

> try to displace as much human labor as possible > stifling this is a benefit I suppose this depends in part on how much value you place on keeping the world a laborious place for humans. Reducing the need for labor will almost certainly lead to more beauty in the world. If we aren't seeking a world where humans are freed from menial labor and so have bandwidth to make art and music, what are we actually seeking? Perhaps this needs to be defined first by the AI-luddites and then a more reasoned discussion can follow.

jprete 3y ago
This was a better argument when AI wasn't making art and music. EDIT: For what it's worth, no I don't want people to have to do menial labor or whatnot. I just see no reason to expect AGI to make people's lives better if those people have nothing to economically contribute.
- jMyles 3y ago
  I'm also skeptical of the "took our jobs" argument with respect to making art and music. I think art and music is easier to make in the presence of AI.
  - johnnyanmac 3y ago
    Video game market already shows this future. Marketplaces become flooded with titles, developers spend more time marketing than making art. They get out gunned by the AAA studios and the remainders fight for scraps, with maybe 1-2 indie titles a year becoming breakout hits, and a dozen (out of thousands of titles) maybe getting a decent cult following. Success is controlled by algorithms and you need to minmax your SEO to even be noticed. It's not a future that benefits small entrepreneurs. And I think the last thing Music needs is even more artists putting out more generated much into the store.
    - jMyles 3y ago
      > They get out gunned by the AAA studios What does this even mean? Nobody was prevented from making a game; you are just describing the market dynamics of the previous human configuration, which of course are going to change along with the rest of this evolution. And in any case, it's a great time to be a gamer! So many awesome indy games every day. > And I think the last thing Music needs is even more artists putting out more generated much into the store. I mean... I look forward to other people making generated music, and who knows, maybe I'll give it a shot someday. How does it prevent you and I from making the music that speaks to us?
      - johnnyanmac 3y ago
        >you are just describing the market dynamics of the previous human configuration, which of course are going to change along with the rest of this evolution. The same SEO optimized spam that riddles Google search applies to games as well. These asset flips and large studios and mobile games will do all the same tricks, except now they can make 20 games a year or more instead of 5. In short, it will be harder for an indie to stand out, and you as a gamer to find what you want to play. People already complain about steam being ridden with trash in their recommendations, this will accelerate it. You can call it "market dybanics" but it won't be one that benefits you nor me. >How does it prevent you and I from making the music that speaks to us? Put lack of talent, assumedly. Talent said spammers don't care about because they are just flooding the store and seeing what works, but talent what we would care about. Art is also in general not easy to "make for ourselves". We don't know what kind of art per se that we would or wouldn't appreciate without external exposure. By definition our own art can't really challenge our own beliefs. So we want to share those ideas with others. And that's where the trouble begins.
- 2024throwaway 3y ago
  Sounds like the problem is not AI but a society that is structured so that people can only live comfortably if they are economically productive.
  - jprete 3y ago
    As I see it, we aren't going to make such a change in time to matter, so I left it out of my comment.
  - johnnyanmac 3y ago
    Well, yeah. In a post scarcity society with UBI I don't care how much AI is used as long as I have options. As it is, the economy is on the fall and everything is becoming more expensive. How am I supposed to sympathize with technology that is so far aimed at replacing jobs and having the robber barons on top gain even more money? They've long since burned their goodwill so those benefits aren't coming back to the working (or former working) class.

fallingknife 3y ago

No piece of technology has a systemic guarantee that it works.

johnnyanmac 3y ago
But that's what's being sold. And yes there is talks about using it as a lawyer or a prescriber of medicine. If you want to overextend that much you better be ready to deal with thr regulations. We don't want another Boeing in our hands.
- fallingknife 3y ago
  Lawyers and doctors are nowhere near perfect, so that's a completely unreasonable standard. Medical mistakes kill 250K per year in the US (close to 10% of all deaths) so that shows you how effective these regulations are.
jprete 3y ago
If most technology breaks, someone can at least figure out why and fix it in future iterations. No-one is capable of doing that with an AI chatbot.