6 ms·

Just 23¢ to $1.15 is the typical hourly pay [1], work is not always voluntary, and not up to the same employee protection/safety standards as true employment [2

by iglio 3y ago

Just 23¢ to $1.15 is the typical hourly pay [1], work is not always voluntary, and not up to the same employee protection/safety standards as true employment [2]. Labour (and profit) sourced from the incarcerated creates problematic incentives, so needs proper oversight and regulation. [1] https://www.bop.gov/inmates/custody_and_care/unicor_about.jsp#costs https://www.bop.gov/inmates/custody_and_care/unicor_about.js... [2] https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/2022-06-15-captivelaborresearchreport.pdf https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/2022...

MacsHeadroom 3y ago
Thirteenth Amendment Section 1. "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, *except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted,* shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." "except as a punishment for crime"
- defrost 3y ago
  Any other gems of stupidity from 1865 we should abide by? A report published by the American Civil Liberties Union in June 2022 found about 800,000 prisoners out of the 1.2 million in state and federal prisons are forced to work, generating a conservative estimate of $11bn annually in goods and services while average wages range from 13 cents to 52 cents per hour. Five states – Alabama, Arkansas, Georgia, Mississippi and Texas – force prisoners to work without pay. The report concluded that the labor conditions of US prisoners violate fundamental human rights to life and dignity. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/sep/27/slavery-loophole-unpaid-labor-in-prisons https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/sep/27/slavery-loop... Clearly not everybody is in line with holdovers from the cotton fields of central north america. https://harvardpolitics.com/prison-labor-is-a-human-rights-abuse/ https://harvardpolitics.com/prison-labor-is-a-human-rights-a...
  - makeitdouble 3y ago
    My main realization becoming an adult was that time is linear but social progress isn't. The same way we look at ancient Greece philosophers thinking they had some pretty good ideas, a non trivial amount of people look at a century ago's society thinking some of it should be restored or expanded. The reason slavery (disguised in many forms) is still a thing isn't because it takes time, and more because a number of people actively work in that direction. I'd assume those 1865 bits weren't left by mistake and forgotten. I don't know how we can deal with that issue, but I think it will fundamentally be a tough battle.
    - dartos 3y ago
      Slavery is just so damn profitable. If there’s greed, there’s gonna be some kind of slavery ( at best, explorative working conditions)
      - matthewdgreen 3y ago
        I doubt that access to unskilled, unmotivated labor is really that profitable for most modern industries, since it ensures low productivity and displaces business improvements. The reason it works economically is that the taxpayers are paying for prisoners to be fed, clothed and housed, and so the labor can be bid out for very low prices, which makes the lack of skill and motivation break even.
        makeitdouble 3y ago
        > access to unskilled, unmotivated labor is really that profitable for most modern industries It depends on how we qualify "modern" industries, but there's definitely a market for unskilled warm bodies. Recycling triage could be an example of that: the result is simple enough to assess that you can set a dozen of people on a line and adjust reward/punishment depending on the results. And it's definitely a modern problem. The other aspect: while there will be better ways to do it, it won't beat the price of "slave" as long as there's no other risks in participating in the system. In a very dark way, it's pretty hard to beat "almost free" through sheer technical advancement.
        3y ago
  - bryanrasmussen 3y ago
    Lots of states force people to work via all sorts of rules like if you don't work you don't get paroled, or it will go badly at the parole board etc. So there you have something that is not required but pretty much anyone who has a hope of getting out someday will be competing for the few jobs available.
    - defrost 3y ago
      > competing for the few jobs available. The quote given assuming it correct, was that 800,000 prisoners out of the 1.2 million in state and federal prisons are forced to work, Two thirds being forced to work doesn't sound like active competition for the few jobs available. > Lots of states force people to work via all sorts of rules .. US States .. states in other G20 countries not so much.
      - bryanrasmussen 3y ago
        >US States .. states in other G20 countries not so much. the article is about the U.S? Not sure what point you are trying to make. I'm going to have to say there is something fishy about that quote - unfortunately https://usafacts.org/articles/what-are-prison-work-programs-and-how-common-are-they/ https://usafacts.org/articles/what-are-prison-work-programs-... I mean if it's 800,000 are forced to work it means that just about every employed prisoner is forced to work. This might be changing the meaning of forced. There is force where you get moved out on a chain gang in the morning and brought home at night. There is force where you get told if you don't work we will report to the parole board you refused to work and you won't get your parole at the hearing. there is force where your family isn't giving you any money and so you need to work to make money. But while there are lots of people who do not want to work at the jobs available because they suck and are dehumanizing there are obviously jobs that people do want and will compete for.
- marginalia_nu 3y ago
  I think it's a bit of a strange interpretation to read that as a mandate that slavery as a punishment for a crime must exist within the united states. The spirit of the law seems more to be that its not part of what the amendment prohibits.
  - 0xEF 3y ago
    You think it's strange, but many of our countrymen do not. That should tell you what they're about. If you want to see the true face of a nation, watch how those with even the smallest amount of power exploit others.
- rsynnott 3y ago
  That doesn't make it mandatory, though.
- ben_w 3y ago
  Are you calling for a constitutional amendment, or are you trying to say that it's fine because it's in your constitution? The trouble with quotes given in isolation, nobody knows your motivation for giving it.
  - MacsHeadroom 3y ago
    I'm a prison abolitionist, and certainly a slavery abolitionist as well. I just think it's not widely known that slavery is still legal in the United States so long as the slave is a criminal. Quoted the 13th amendment to spread awareness.
    - jfyi 3y ago
      You might be excited to learn that in internet forums discussing things of this nature it is very common knowledge then. It also tends to be used by specific demographics to derail topics like prison and slavery abolition. Without context, it's difficult to tell the difference between belaboring the point and a bad faith argument. I personally gave you the benefit of the doubt, but it makes it questionable and some may not.
      - wolverine876 3y ago
        What forums?
        jfyi 3y ago
        On a wild tangent, I have always been fascinated by the amount of learning material on how to perform searches there is on the web. It's something akin to learning how to learn. It needs to be bootstrapped first. Or, was there some point beyond you asking for help? If so, maybe elaborate a bit.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- wolf89618 3y ago
  [dead]
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

by iglio 3y ago

MacsHeadroom 3y ago

Thirteenth Amendment Section 1. "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, *except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted,* shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." "except as a punishment for crime"

defrost 3y ago
Any other gems of stupidity from 1865 we should abide by? A report published by the American Civil Liberties Union in June 2022 found about 800,000 prisoners out of the 1.2 million in state and federal prisons are forced to work, generating a conservative estimate of $11bn annually in goods and services while average wages range from 13 cents to 52 cents per hour. Five states – Alabama, Arkansas, Georgia, Mississippi and Texas – force prisoners to work without pay. The report concluded that the labor conditions of US prisoners violate fundamental human rights to life and dignity. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/sep/27/slavery-loophole-unpaid-labor-in-prisons https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/sep/27/slavery-loop... Clearly not everybody is in line with holdovers from the cotton fields of central north america. https://harvardpolitics.com/prison-labor-is-a-human-rights-abuse/ https://harvardpolitics.com/prison-labor-is-a-human-rights-a...
- makeitdouble 3y ago
  My main realization becoming an adult was that time is linear but social progress isn't. The same way we look at ancient Greece philosophers thinking they had some pretty good ideas, a non trivial amount of people look at a century ago's society thinking some of it should be restored or expanded. The reason slavery (disguised in many forms) is still a thing isn't because it takes time, and more because a number of people actively work in that direction. I'd assume those 1865 bits weren't left by mistake and forgotten. I don't know how we can deal with that issue, but I think it will fundamentally be a tough battle.
  - dartos 3y ago
    Slavery is just so damn profitable. If there’s greed, there’s gonna be some kind of slavery ( at best, explorative working conditions)
    - matthewdgreen 3y ago
      I doubt that access to unskilled, unmotivated labor is really that profitable for most modern industries, since it ensures low productivity and displaces business improvements. The reason it works economically is that the taxpayers are paying for prisoners to be fed, clothed and housed, and so the labor can be bid out for very low prices, which makes the lack of skill and motivation break even.
      - makeitdouble 3y ago
        > access to unskilled, unmotivated labor is really that profitable for most modern industries It depends on how we qualify "modern" industries, but there's definitely a market for unskilled warm bodies. Recycling triage could be an example of that: the result is simple enough to assess that you can set a dozen of people on a line and adjust reward/punishment depending on the results. And it's definitely a modern problem. The other aspect: while there will be better ways to do it, it won't beat the price of "slave" as long as there's no other risks in participating in the system. In a very dark way, it's pretty hard to beat "almost free" through sheer technical advancement.
      - 3y ago
- bryanrasmussen 3y ago
  Lots of states force people to work via all sorts of rules like if you don't work you don't get paroled, or it will go badly at the parole board etc. So there you have something that is not required but pretty much anyone who has a hope of getting out someday will be competing for the few jobs available.
  - defrost 3y ago
    > competing for the few jobs available. The quote given assuming it correct, was that 800,000 prisoners out of the 1.2 million in state and federal prisons are forced to work, Two thirds being forced to work doesn't sound like active competition for the few jobs available. > Lots of states force people to work via all sorts of rules .. US States .. states in other G20 countries not so much.
    - bryanrasmussen 3y ago
      >US States .. states in other G20 countries not so much. the article is about the U.S? Not sure what point you are trying to make. I'm going to have to say there is something fishy about that quote - unfortunately https://usafacts.org/articles/what-are-prison-work-programs-and-how-common-are-they/ https://usafacts.org/articles/what-are-prison-work-programs-... I mean if it's 800,000 are forced to work it means that just about every employed prisoner is forced to work. This might be changing the meaning of forced. There is force where you get moved out on a chain gang in the morning and brought home at night. There is force where you get told if you don't work we will report to the parole board you refused to work and you won't get your parole at the hearing. there is force where your family isn't giving you any money and so you need to work to make money. But while there are lots of people who do not want to work at the jobs available because they suck and are dehumanizing there are obviously jobs that people do want and will compete for.
marginalia_nu 3y ago
I think it's a bit of a strange interpretation to read that as a mandate that slavery as a punishment for a crime must exist within the united states. The spirit of the law seems more to be that its not part of what the amendment prohibits.
- 0xEF 3y ago
  You think it's strange, but many of our countrymen do not. That should tell you what they're about. If you want to see the true face of a nation, watch how those with even the smallest amount of power exploit others.
rsynnott 3y ago
That doesn't make it mandatory, though.
ben_w 3y ago
Are you calling for a constitutional amendment, or are you trying to say that it's fine because it's in your constitution? The trouble with quotes given in isolation, nobody knows your motivation for giving it.
- MacsHeadroom 3y ago
  I'm a prison abolitionist, and certainly a slavery abolitionist as well. I just think it's not widely known that slavery is still legal in the United States so long as the slave is a criminal. Quoted the 13th amendment to spread awareness.
  - jfyi 3y ago
    You might be excited to learn that in internet forums discussing things of this nature it is very common knowledge then. It also tends to be used by specific demographics to derail topics like prison and slavery abolition. Without context, it's difficult to tell the difference between belaboring the point and a bad faith argument. I personally gave you the benefit of the doubt, but it makes it questionable and some may not.
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      What forums?
      - jfyi 3y ago
        On a wild tangent, I have always been fascinated by the amount of learning material on how to perform searches there is on the web. It's something akin to learning how to learn. It needs to be bootstrapped first. Or, was there some point beyond you asking for help? If so, maybe elaborate a bit.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
wolf89618 3y ago
[dead]

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]