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Ryzen 8000G review: An integrated GPU that can beat a graphics card, for a price
- AbuAssar 3y agoRyzen 8700G delivers comparable cpu performance to Core i5-14600K while using only one-third of the TDP 65 vs 181 watt now that is impressive!
- satvikpendem 3y agoThis should be great for battery life in the next few generations of laptops and handhelds.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- tpm 3y agoIt's a rebadged mobile APU (7040 series Phoenix APU).
- jeroenhd 3y agoRyzen has been more power friendly than Intel Core for a while now. I don't think consumers care much about eco friendliness, though, which is a shame. I suppose it could always be sold as "doesn't heat up the room as much", but anyone with a dedicated GPU will have a computational space heater sitting next to them regardless these days.
- secondcoming 3y agoI think that yes they're more power friendly when doing work, but consume more power at idle than Intel CPUs. At least that used be the case, don't know if that's still the case. As for eco-friendliness... it's something I now consider when buying electronics but more from an electricity bill point of view.
- Dalewyn 3y agoIntel is very likely still the IdleM@ster[1][2]. Also, most CPUs spend most of their time idling or very low load, not belching hellfire upon the scorched earth. Efficiency at idle/low power is far more significant than efficiency at flame belching if power consumption over time is concerned. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38823514 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38823514 [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38829531 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38829531
- mihalycsaba 3y agoHow big is the difference on a regular setup? And is it a same kind of cpu, with integrated graphics? One of the example you linked says 7 watt, which is impressive, but I think you could achieve similar optimizations on an amd system. Let's say I install windows or some linux desktop and don't do any optimizations, how big is the difference?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- Retric 3y agoIdle power consumption is all over the place with AMD taking the lowest and highest spots on this chart: https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/10evt0z/ryzen_vs_intels_idle_power_consumption_whole/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/10evt0z/ryzen_vs_intel... Who wins depends on both the system and how it’s used.
- magicalhippo 3y agoI recall this blog post[1], discussed here[2] at the time, discussing how a SATA chip driver prevented the CPU from going to sleep state C6, instead keeping it at C3, leading to higher power consumption. Switching the SATA card to one with a different chip fixed that. There were other surprising factors which affected power draw. My takeaway was that as in real life, sleeping can be hard. [1]: https://mattgadient.com/7-watts-idle-on-intel-12th-13th-gen-the-foundation-for-building-a-low-power-server-nas/ https://mattgadient.com/7-watts-idle-on-intel-12th-13th-gen-... [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38823514 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38823514
- nl 3y ago> I don't think consumers care much about eco friendliness, though, which is a shame. Many do care about noise though!
- iamthepieman 3y agoFor mobile processors, it's one of the first things I look at though. And like you and others said I don't just look at the TDP but also rely on the big testing sites for load heat tests. Or, at least, I did until the m series processors came out and you could get a passively cooled laptop for a decent price.
- distances 3y agoMaybe not everyone but I definitely care. Lower consumption means smaller PSU and cooling requirements and less issues during heatwaves (no AC). Futhermore, my computer corner with a fair bit of electronics is served by only one electricity socket with a bunch of extensions cords that I really would rather not overload.
- Semaphor 3y agoYeah, my gaming (obviously I'm not playing AAA action games) PC runs on a 350W PSU and is rarely audible.
- smallstepforman 3y agoI do care about fan noise, my current system was specifically built for it (ryzen 3700x, rx5600 gpu)
- tiahura 3y agoWhy don’t more people put their pc in another room or floor? Even Amazon $20 HDMI cables are pretty resilient at 50’. Stuck my gaming PC in the basement decades ago and haven’t worried about cooling or noise since.
- twisteriffic 3y agoMost people don't have another room or floor to put it in?
- FirmwareBurner 3y agoWhy don't people just buy bigger houses with more rooms, d'uh? /s
- jijijijij 3y agoIn Europe electricity is expensive, though. If you pay 50c€ per kWh, energy efficiency does matter. Less heat also allows for a more compact or mobile design. Smaller builds are gaining popularity.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- DanielHB 3y agoTrue, I actually have been underclocking my RTX 3800 to keep heat and costs down.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago>Smaller builds are gaining popularity. Gaining popularity in the ever shrinking market of PCs is nothing to brag about. I'd wager it's still not that popular as you make it be. Everyone just buys laptops nowadays and whoever they do buy PCs they get the full sized towers with discrete GPUs for gaming, not small form factors with APUs. That's more of a niche of a niche. That's why AMD hasn't focused too much on APUs for desktop PCs. It's not a big market. Their biggest sellers are APUs for notebooks and consoles, CPUs for datacenters and desktops, discrete GPUs for ... everything.
- Scrutiny6707 3y agoIt's been an "ever shrinking market" since the 2000s, if you believe the news. A thing to consider is, for the consumer market, machines have gotten good enough that most don't need a new machine for 5+ years, in terms of performance. Especially for casual household tasks.
- jijijijij 3y agoNo, you are right. I think this APU is basically a spin-off mobile processor. The technology comparison would be translatable, though, as with laptops battery life and weight matters. However, here we talk about the desktop market, don't we? And not every desktop PC has to be a gaming capable machine. Power-savings will probably be even more relevant for organizations running hundreds of office machines and terminals.
- mort96 3y agoBe very careful about comparing TDPs, especially across manufacturers. It doesn't really say anything about real power consumption. The TDP difference is so big it probably represents some real difference in power consumption, but actual measurements are necessary to say anything concrete.
- guardian5x 3y agoWhile you can't compare TDPs directly. Basically all tests of Ryzen processors with 3d cache use about half as much power or less than their Intel counterparts. So this wouldn't surprise me.
- mort96 3y agoYeah, the Ryzen part is almost certainly significantly lower power
- plasticchris 3y agoTDP is arbitrary, they actually calculate it with arbitrary constants that change per chip. So it is meaningless at this point. See https://gamersnexus.net/guides/3525-amd-ryzen-tdp-explained-deep-dive-cooler-manufacturer-opinions https://gamersnexus.net/guides/3525-amd-ryzen-tdp-explained-...
- FirmwareBurner 3y agoAlso, chiplet based Ryzens are notorious for higher idle power consumption than Intel's monolithic dies, which is where CPUs spend most of their time in consumer applications (web browsing, netflix, shitposting on reddit, etc) instead of running at full load all the time. Synthetic tests that stress everything at full bore, are not realistic representations for your average consumer PC application scenario. Even video games don't cause as much power draw as synthetic benchmarks can which are more akin to power viruses. In real life daily driving, Ryzen might still be more efficient than Intels but with a much smaller margin than such tests might lead you to believe.
- vladvasiliu 3y agoI'm currently typing this on an i7-1165G7 running windows 11, with a few background tabs in edge, teams and outlook. CPU usage as reported by task manager seems to hover around 7-10%. CPU clock hovers around 2.2 GHz with regular peaks above 3 GHz. Is that idle? Not sure I could get this box at any lower use than this, even though I understand this is different from having all cores pegged at 100%.
- tiahura 3y agoDoesn’t idle mean something more like C:\> than multitasking billions of instructions per second?
- FirmwareBurner 3y agoWe're talking idling from the perspective of an actual user at home, so there will obviously be a web browser and some background tasks running. Idling without anything running, even an OS, is interesting for metrics, but not something realistic for any user.
- zamadatix 3y agoAlong with comparing what the others have said about comparing TDPs between vendors (or even different product lines sometimes) TDP is about multi-core draw so you'd need to also normalize the multithread performance differences between the two, not look at the single thread performance being near equal (that'll be significantly less than 65 Watts for each). I think the 8700G is probably more efficient but it won't be anything like 65 vs 181 watt would leave one to believe.
- marmaduke 3y agoCPU mark scores are 32k and 39k respectively. It's at least twice as efficient
- zamadatix 3y agoAssumming: - PL1/PL2 from Intel can be compared to TDP from AMD - CPU Mark scores alone are the best indicator of what full utilization looks like vs another test You'd be accurate. You can't really assume either of these things though. The better comparison to TDP from AMD is probably closer to "base power" of 125W than PL1/PL2 of 181 on the Intel side. Other benchmarks, like encoding using all cores efficiently with matrix extensions, are in the 25%-30% difference. Combine these two facts and it's probably closer to 1.5x efficient (instead of the 2.5x the raw numbers above suggest, 3x the relative improvement), but you'd have to actually measure active power doing the same amount of total work to know for sure. Even ignoring one of the facts the encoding benchmark differences are enough to guarantee it'd actually be less than twice as efficient, not at least twice as efficient.
- jeffbee 3y agoThe higher power consumption on the Intel side is mostly a reflection of the futility of feeding it more power. A better way to compare these would have been to dial back the power levels on the Intel CPU until it was only just as fast as the AMD part, and compare that power level.
- ac29 3y agoA better comparison of efficiency is task energy, which the article did cover. In a video encoding task, the 8700G used 30% less energy than the 14600K, but it actually used more energy than a 13400.
- viraptor 3y ago> But when integrated graphics push forward, it can open up possibilities for people who want to play games but can only afford a cheap desktop Or those who play on recent handhelds. Steamdeck with integrated RDNA2 is very capable with even modern games. Sure, you can't crank it up to ultimate quality with hundreds of fps - but it's enough, and above the "cheap" level of performance. Also, looking at geekbench results, it basically matches the M2 Max in a mbp.
- rainburg 3y agoThere’s either a mistake or this is a bad metric, perhaps. Currently the most powerful AMD iGPU is Radeon 780M (found 7840U/HS and 8700G CPUs). Judging by Notebookcheck‘s results, M2 Max GPU has up 2× the fps in Borderlands, 2.5× the fps in Witcher 3, and 3× the fps in Shadow of The Tomb Raider. As for the benchmarks, the M2 Max GPU has 4–6× the fps in GFXBench, compared to Radeon 780M. And the RDNA3-based 780M has twice the raw compute performance, compared to Steam Deck’s RDNA2 GPU. Unfortunately, GPUs in handhelds are always severely underpowered.
- dathinab 3y agoat least historically handhelds can't be too expensive if they want to archive wide success M2 Max isn't available on the free market (as part) but if it where it likely alone would cost noticable more then what a full handheld can afford to cost
- viraptor 3y agoI meant the CPU part of 8000G, not the GPU. Could've been clearer about it.
- verwalt 3y agoThe biggest problem of the M2 Max: the games you mentioned are 3 of like 10 that run on it (might be more, I am exaggerating a bit). I wish Asahi would move forward much faster and I could game on it, but at this point, gaming on a Mac isn't really a thing. Source: I have one from work that I really want to be able to play. Whisky, Crossover, Parallels, I tried them all.
- acd10j 3y agoCan this integrated graphic units (APUs) work similarly to Apple M series for Generative AI inference, in combining GPU and System memory and give competitive advantage to AMD?
- 112233 3y agois there a way to get this with working ecc ram support? amd lately is going all-out to prevent normal users from getting ecc support...
- piconanomicro 3y agoAMD leaves ECC support to motherboard vendors. Asrock has ECC supported ryzen boards https://www.asrockrack.com/minisite/Ryzen7000/ https://www.asrockrack.com/minisite/Ryzen7000/
- 112233 3y agoyes, but not really, see e.g. this comment from a relevant thread on framework laptop forum: https://community.frame.work/t/will-the-new-amd-boards-support-ecc-ram/28373/25 https://community.frame.work/t/will-the-new-amd-boards-suppo... That is an explicit "ecc: no" from amd on 7640U spec page. There is absolutely no ECC mentioned on 8700G spec page currently: https://www.amd.com/en/product/14066 https://www.amd.com/en/product/14066 Vendors can do only so much if amd starts actively disabling/removing/preventing ecc, like it seems to be doing quietly now.
- pedrocr 3y agoNow that's annoying. That specs page for the 8700G used to say "ECC Support: Yes (Requires platform support)" three weeks ago. They've since removed it.
- p_l 3y agoBecause people get boards that do not support it then complain to AMD. Easier to just not claim it's there, like AMD used to. That said, thanks to AMD UEFI modules always exporting their settings databases, even if vendor didn't provide options to configure things, you can always try to enable ECC (and various other things - beware of possibly damaging the hardware!).
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- eleitl 3y agoIt would be interesting to revisit this review for the forthcoming Strix Halo. Particularly, for ML tasks on relative large memory sizes which are prohibitively expensive for GPUs.
- rockyj 3y agoNot sure of how well this will work with Linux. I had a AMD4 "5XXXG" CPU and there were contant freezes. The Linux kernel does eventually catch-up but it takes time.
- happymellon 3y agohttps://www.phoronix.com/review/amd-ryzen7-8700g-linux https://www.phoronix.com/review/amd-ryzen7-8700g-linux Appears to work well, although I've not heard of other people having the issues that you did on the 5000 series. I'm still on the 3000 series so my experience is older, but always very stable even when new.
- olavgg 3y agoI just installed Ubuntu on Ryzen 7950X which uses RDNA2 igpu, since Ubuntu delivers both Chrome and Firefox through snap, both web browsers are completely broken with hardware acceleration enabled. With Debian that delivers Firefox from deb packages, everything works great... https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/firefox/+bug/2004532 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/firefox/+bug/20045...
- happymellon 3y agoI apparently am forgetful, as the couch PC that I've got SteamOS on is a 5600X. I've not seen any issues on that.
- dathinab 3y agoas long as you don't run into any bios issues it should work as good as recent AMD laptops (which AFIK work fine if you use a recent stable kernel)
- mihalycsaba 3y agoI still have that cpu, I remember the freezes, it affected Windows too, it was because of the fTPM, you needed to update your firmware or disable fTPM.
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- abdellah123 3y agoI wonder if there is a detailed benchmark on using stable diffusion on this hardware (and other) ...
- thoewri234234 3y agoIf instead AMD made a graphics card with expandable DDR5 slots, that'd be life-threat to Nvidia's business model.
- exitb 3y agoIsn't that a latency issue?
- Cheer2171 3y agoWhy would a GPU with 1/3rd of the memory bandwidth and no CUDA be a threat to Nvidia?
- bryanlarsen 3y agoAnything without CUDA is not an existential threat, but anything that supports PyTorch and provides lots of RAM at a low price is a monopoly-profits threat.
- reacharavindh 3y agoWould AMD be able to produce a core design with unified memory like that of Apple’s M series such that a Ryzen core with integrated GPU cores _and_ unified memory? If they do, it will open up a lot of interesting doors. As good as Apple’s M series CPUs are, one cannot (reasonably) simply build server rigs with them and exploit all that power..
- bryanlarsen 3y agoThey've already created such a design. It's called the MI300A and costs $20k.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- bnolsen 3y agoThat would eat into their discrete gpu sales. It would take courage to cannibalize their own sales.
- SoapSeller 3y agoStrange that they talk so much about GTX 1650 but didn't bothered to benchmark it. Someone in the comments linked to actual benchmark[0] and it looks like it ~30% faster in most cases... [0] https://www.computerbase.de/2024-01/amd-ryzen-8700g-8600g-test/2/#abschnitt_leistungsrating_1920__1080_full_hd https://www.computerbase.de/2024-01/amd-ryzen-8700g-8600g-te...
- treprinum 3y agoSo 8700G's GPU is at the level of GTX1070? Not bad... M3 Max is about 2x faster (2080Ti level)
- bnolsen 3y agoNot being able to beat an rx570 isn't something to brag about. Those cards go used for under 50usd in the market and can be undervolted pretty easily. Just having a hard time figuring out why someone wouldn't just go with a 7700.