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A $20 toaster has overheat detection technology. Presumably other planes are doing this already. I am not understanding how there is a novel engineering problem

A $20 toaster has overheat detection technology. Presumably other planes are doing this already. I am not understanding how there is a novel engineering problem to solve that could not be incorporated into the release.

spookie 3y ago
Early access for planes. The next step in commercial aviation. Feel the thrill of life threatening bugs!
- bpye 3y ago
  At least early access games might give you a discount or some exclusive content.
  - justinclift 3y ago
    If they keep going as they are, then flying with Boeing might result in life insurance claims being invalidated. ;)
- lnxg33k1 3y ago
  Boeing: "For the real adrenaline junkies"
  - NegativeLatency 3y ago
    If it’s Boeing I’m not going.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
jfim 3y ago
The worst thing that can happen with a toaster is that it catches on fire, while a plane can crash and kill hundreds of people. While that doesn't make Boeing any less responsible for engineering proper solutions instead of a compliance hack, there's a difference between the solution for a throwaway consumer device and one for a multi-million dollar airplane that has to operate in conditions with harsh vibration and wide operating temperature ranges, has to be serviceable for decades, and cannot fail in ways that render the plane inoperable.
- KennyBlanken 3y ago
  Yeah, because an electrical appliance catching on fire is never deadly? What a bunch of hysterical hand-wringing. They just needed to a program a timer on the heater circuit and/or add sensors; the engines are already incredibly instrumented so this wouldn't be hard to do. "Cannot fail in ways that render the plane inoperable" is precisely why there should not be a system that if forgotten about by the pilots past ~10 minutes causes the destruction of the engine nacelle and thus both probable destruction of the engines and penetration of the body of the aircraft by parts of said engine when it ingests parts of the nacelle. You don't understand how serious that is. The nacelle of a jet engine is designed to contain a blade-off event where one or more blades - each of which has a massive amount of kinetic energy - completely break off from the turbine rotor at takeoff power levels. The level of corporate apologism in your comment is breathtaking.
  - avalys 3y ago
    There’s no indication that the catastrophic failure you’re speculating about here is actually likely to occur - and plenty of evidence that it’s not.
    - juanani 3y ago
      [dead]
    - Mtinie 3y ago
      Is it a scenario, even if unlikely?
  - jfim 3y ago
    My comment talks about how the solution space for a toaster and a plane are completely different. A simple thermal fuse to prevent catastrophic failure of a toaster is an example of a solution that works for a toaster. It's cheap. If the toaster handle gets stuck, the fuse heats up, trips, and the toaster is inoperable but there is no fire. The customer can replace the toaster or the thermal fuse. That solution doesn't work for a plane, because if the fuse trips mid flight and the anti icing system doesn't work until the plane lands and maintenance replaces the thermal fuse, the plane is screwed if it encounters icing conditions during the same flight. A timer doesn't work in this case, since from what I recall keeping the anti-icing system on is okay as long as the plane is in icing conditions. It can only overheat if the anti-icing is kept on outside of icing conditions for a few minutes. Realistically, the system should work the same way it works on other planes; if it's forgotten, then it could waste energy but shouldn't cause the engine to fail. It's only because the engine inlet is made of composite materials instead of metal that this is a problem, but this is a problem of Boeing's own making.
charles_f 3y ago
From what I read elsewhere the problem is not entirely an engineering issue, but the fact that this creates new procedures to be followed by pilots, and relying on the pilots memory for these rare, but statistically significant occurrences is yet another risk on top of a plane that's already caveat-rich

spookie 3y ago

Early access for planes. The next step in commercial aviation. Feel the thrill of life threatening bugs!

bpye 3y ago
At least early access games might give you a discount or some exclusive content.
- justinclift 3y ago
  If they keep going as they are, then flying with Boeing might result in life insurance claims being invalidated. ;)
lnxg33k1 3y ago
Boeing: "For the real adrenaline junkies"
- NegativeLatency 3y ago
  If it’s Boeing I’m not going.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

jfim 3y ago

The worst thing that can happen with a toaster is that it catches on fire, while a plane can crash and kill hundreds of people. While that doesn't make Boeing any less responsible for engineering proper solutions instead of a compliance hack, there's a difference between the solution for a throwaway consumer device and one for a multi-million dollar airplane that has to operate in conditions with harsh vibration and wide operating temperature ranges, has to be serviceable for decades, and cannot fail in ways that render the plane inoperable.

KennyBlanken 3y ago
Yeah, because an electrical appliance catching on fire is never deadly? What a bunch of hysterical hand-wringing. They just needed to a program a timer on the heater circuit and/or add sensors; the engines are already incredibly instrumented so this wouldn't be hard to do. "Cannot fail in ways that render the plane inoperable" is precisely why there should not be a system that if forgotten about by the pilots past ~10 minutes causes the destruction of the engine nacelle and thus both probable destruction of the engines and penetration of the body of the aircraft by parts of said engine when it ingests parts of the nacelle. You don't understand how serious that is. The nacelle of a jet engine is designed to contain a blade-off event where one or more blades - each of which has a massive amount of kinetic energy - completely break off from the turbine rotor at takeoff power levels. The level of corporate apologism in your comment is breathtaking.
- avalys 3y ago
  There’s no indication that the catastrophic failure you’re speculating about here is actually likely to occur - and plenty of evidence that it’s not.
  - juanani 3y ago
    [dead]
  - Mtinie 3y ago
    Is it a scenario, even if unlikely?
- jfim 3y ago
  My comment talks about how the solution space for a toaster and a plane are completely different. A simple thermal fuse to prevent catastrophic failure of a toaster is an example of a solution that works for a toaster. It's cheap. If the toaster handle gets stuck, the fuse heats up, trips, and the toaster is inoperable but there is no fire. The customer can replace the toaster or the thermal fuse. That solution doesn't work for a plane, because if the fuse trips mid flight and the anti icing system doesn't work until the plane lands and maintenance replaces the thermal fuse, the plane is screwed if it encounters icing conditions during the same flight. A timer doesn't work in this case, since from what I recall keeping the anti-icing system on is okay as long as the plane is in icing conditions. It can only overheat if the anti-icing is kept on outside of icing conditions for a few minutes. Realistically, the system should work the same way it works on other planes; if it's forgotten, then it could waste energy but shouldn't cause the engine to fail. It's only because the engine inlet is made of composite materials instead of metal that this is a problem, but this is a problem of Boeing's own making.

charles_f 3y ago

From what I read elsewhere the problem is not entirely an engineering issue, but the fact that this creates new procedures to be followed by pilots, and relying on the pilots memory for these rare, but statistically significant occurrences is yet another risk on top of a plane that's already caveat-rich