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This is one of those situations where a theory reasoned from first principles fails to match reality. Back in the 20th C., drivers frequently took amphetamines

This is one of those situations where a theory reasoned from first principles fails to match reality. Back in the 20th C., drivers frequently took amphetamines in order to spend more time driving. Forged log books are a significant incentive for the development of electronic logs. I've seen many stories of drivers told to break hours-of-service regulations by dispatchers. And the hours of service regs are insane (https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/regulations/hours-service/summary-hours-service-regulations https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/regulations/hours-service/summary-... - keep in mind "on duty" != "driving" but waiting for loads and such, which the driver is not paid for) largely to maximize the number of hours driven.

beaeglebeached 3y ago
Why isn't it illegal to force someone to log/elog overage hours? Isn't that a fifth amendment violation as you're forcing them to incriminate themselves? Seems elog should be challenged.
- lazyasciiart 3y ago
  Same reason you can go to jail for not reporting your illegal income.
  - beaeglebeached 3y ago
    The IRS can't make you say where the income is from, though, so unlike logging it's at best a hint of a crime rather than an admission of crime.
- happyopossum 3y ago
  By that logic any law requiring disclosure of any kind would be a fifth amendment violation. You are not required to participate in trucking, nor is it a right to do so. Choosing that career (and it's associated licensing) comes with responsibilities...
  - beaeglebeached 3y ago
    Here's an example. You don't have a right to a short barreled shotgun (per US v. Miller). But you can get one by buying a stamp. If I'm a felon applying for the stamp would be incriminating, thus courts ruled felon cannot be guilty of not disclosing they have the shotgun. So they get to have it and never 'log' it even though everyone else must. It's only violating the fifth for the part where you must admit to crimes, not all logging. I'm talking about hours logged past the maximum.
scholarofgolb 3y ago
That doesn't necessarily mean there's a disagreement about safety between workers and supervisors, it could just as well mean they both disagree with the regulators about the acceptable level of risk. This would make sense from first principles, because unsafe truckers impose externalities beyond the direct risks to truckers and their supervisors, by making the roads more dangerous to the public.

beaeglebeached 3y ago

Why isn't it illegal to force someone to log/elog overage hours? Isn't that a fifth amendment violation as you're forcing them to incriminate themselves? Seems elog should be challenged.

lazyasciiart 3y ago
Same reason you can go to jail for not reporting your illegal income.
- beaeglebeached 3y ago
  The IRS can't make you say where the income is from, though, so unlike logging it's at best a hint of a crime rather than an admission of crime.
happyopossum 3y ago
By that logic any law requiring disclosure of any kind would be a fifth amendment violation. You are not required to participate in trucking, nor is it a right to do so. Choosing that career (and it's associated licensing) comes with responsibilities...
- beaeglebeached 3y ago
  Here's an example. You don't have a right to a short barreled shotgun (per US v. Miller). But you can get one by buying a stamp. If I'm a felon applying for the stamp would be incriminating, thus courts ruled felon cannot be guilty of not disclosing they have the shotgun. So they get to have it and never 'log' it even though everyone else must. It's only violating the fifth for the part where you must admit to crimes, not all logging. I'm talking about hours logged past the maximum.

scholarofgolb 3y ago

That doesn't necessarily mean there's a disagreement about safety between workers and supervisors, it could just as well mean they both disagree with the regulators about the acceptable level of risk. This would make sense from first principles, because unsafe truckers impose externalities beyond the direct risks to truckers and their supervisors, by making the roads more dangerous to the public.