4 ms·

In Germany more than half of all murder victims are women. I presume it's not much different in other countries, although gang on gang violence may distort the

In Germany more than half of all murder victims are women. I presume it's not much different in other countries, although gang on gang violence may distort the picture a bit. If you look into research on femicide, you see there is a specific dynamic at work, objectification and feelings of possession in men are causal. These motives are universal, as femicides are otherwise frequently happening across all economic, cultural and social backgrounds.

almatabata 3y ago
> I presume it's not much different in other countries, although gang on gang violence may distort the picture a bit. If you count all homicides i would expect women to usually be the minority in most countries due to gang crime as you say. In france its the reverse, 67% of all murder victims are men. The data looks similar in the US. In the french statistics certain crimes affect mostly women and other mostly men. 97% gang related deaths are men while 66% of intra-family deaths are women. Germany: https://www.bka.de/DE/AktuelleInformationen/StatistikenLagebilder/PolizeilicheKriminalstatistik/PKS2020/InteraktiveKarten/03MordTotschlagToetungAufVerlangen/03_MordTotschlagToetungAufVerlangenBundesrespublik.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=2 https://www.bka.de/DE/AktuelleInformationen/StatistikenLageb... France: https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/5763555?sommaire=5763633 https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/5763555?sommaire=576363... US: https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6.xls https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-...
- jijijijij 3y ago
  Yeah, my "expectation" was meant in regard to non-gang violence, which varies by country a lot. Gang on gang, or inner crime violence is for the most part irrelevant to the argument, as it's not something the general population is involved in, usually. My point is, femicides are a much bigger problem than people realize. Considering the majority of murderers and other criminals are men, I don't think it's wild to presume some form of gender specific motivations in those murders, without getting all academic here. Don't know about you infographic, here is recent stats for Germany: https://www.bka.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Publikationen/PolizeilicheKriminalstatistik/2022/Bund/Opfer/BU-O-01-T91-Opfer_xls.html https://www.bka.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Publikationen/Pol...
  - belorn 3y ago
    There is an interesting aspect when looking at gender in intra-relationship violence. The rate of violence is fairly independent on the gender of the couple, meaning that same-sex relationships has the same rate of violence as any other relationship. This statistical phenomenon mean that women in same-sex relationships are twice as violent as other women, and men in same-sex relationships are about half as violent as other men. The big question then is what (if any) gender specific motivations is causing this to occur.
    - jijijijij 3y ago
      Can you link the source for that? It's not that I would completely dismiss it, I think I read it before, but I still would like to see the meaning of "same" here. I think there are many possible explanations, but one certainly shouldn't be ignored over essentialist ones: Co-morbid mental illness and maladapted behavior in LGBT folks, caused by their upbringing and coping with discrimination or alienation. They usually don't have a blueprint for life and have to make up their own gender and community roles. Then there is all sorts of violence imaginable in relation to "gay panic" and self-acceptance. It may be cishet gender roles and the male archetype finding their way into these relationships. Maybe people are just violent opportunists. (I doubt there are as many murders in F4F relationships...) Maybe there are biological causes. Personally, I think it's misguided to separate sexual orientation and identity as fundamentally different. The whole of "sex difference" is produced by effective androgenic and estrogenic signaling throughout life. Like, a cell has no sex. The Y chromosome does about nothing, except for a brief moment mid development, and everything else is genetically identical. All genes affecting androgen effectiveness are located elsewhere. Funnily enough, the androgen receptor is encoded on the X-chromosome, so typically women got the information twice, making it functionally more robust. Androgens role in aggressiveness is well documented, and it's usually relative levels making the difference. Maybe there is some sort of selective order in the lesbian community too. Things like PCOS come to mind. Or a mix of all... There won't be data to give a definitive answer. Honestly, I think it would be more interesting, if murder rates in M4M relationships were lower or higher. Cause sexual objectification definitely is present in some parts of the gay community. Although often in concert with sexual liberation and reciprocity, and I don't think possessive thinking is frequent.
belorn 3y ago
> In Germany more than half of all murder victims are women. I presume it's not much different in other countries, although gang on gang violence may distort the picture a bit. No? For 2022 in Sweden the numbers were 93 men, 23 women. Men has been overrepresentative by 200% or more for as long as we have statistic data. You can look at the graph at the government statistic department on crime here: https://bra.se/statistik/statistik-om-brottstyper/mord-och-drap.html https://bra.se/statistik/statistik-om-brottstyper/mord-och-d... From that same page, 9% of cases involve violence within a couple relation. It would surprise me if the data looks that much different in other Nordic countries.
- almatabata 3y ago
  I think he has a better point if he focused on intra-relationship murders. In these cases its usually women who are the victims in most country statistics i have seen. From the swedish one: > I alla 10 fall av dödligt våld i en parrelation 2022 var offret en kvinna, vilket var 5 fall färre jämfört med 2021 => In all 10 cases of fatal violence in a couple relationship in 2022, the victim was a woman.
- jijijijij 3y ago
  I don't speak Swedish. What's the proportion of gang on gang violence? Because I think it's irrelevant for the argument, as the general population isn't much directly affected by it. In Germany, 2022, there were 114 male and 150 female murder (§ 211 StGB) victims. Mind you, that's all murders, including gang violence. https://www.bka.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Publikationen/PolizeilicheKriminalstatistik/2022/Bund/Opfer/BU-O-01-T91-Opfer_xls.xlsx https://www.bka.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Publikationen/Pol...
  - belorn 3y ago
    The number of deaths has increased in the last 10 years by 20%, so say around 20% can be attributed to gang violence? There is no official definition of gang on gang violence in the statistics, so we can only really guess here. One thing of note is that the use of a gun sits at around 50%, which has also had a similar 20% increase in the last 10 years. The gang on gang violence that get media attention usually involve shooting or explosives.

almatabata 3y ago

> I presume it's not much different in other countries, although gang on gang violence may distort the picture a bit. If you count all homicides i would expect women to usually be the minority in most countries due to gang crime as you say. In france its the reverse, 67% of all murder victims are men. The data looks similar in the US. In the french statistics certain crimes affect mostly women and other mostly men. 97% gang related deaths are men while 66% of intra-family deaths are women. Germany: https://www.bka.de/DE/AktuelleInformationen/StatistikenLagebilder/PolizeilicheKriminalstatistik/PKS2020/InteraktiveKarten/03MordTotschlagToetungAufVerlangen/03_MordTotschlagToetungAufVerlangenBundesrespublik.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=2 https://www.bka.de/DE/AktuelleInformationen/StatistikenLageb... France: https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/5763555?sommaire=5763633 https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/5763555?sommaire=576363... US: https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6.xls https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-...

jijijijij 3y ago
Yeah, my "expectation" was meant in regard to non-gang violence, which varies by country a lot. Gang on gang, or inner crime violence is for the most part irrelevant to the argument, as it's not something the general population is involved in, usually. My point is, femicides are a much bigger problem than people realize. Considering the majority of murderers and other criminals are men, I don't think it's wild to presume some form of gender specific motivations in those murders, without getting all academic here. Don't know about you infographic, here is recent stats for Germany: https://www.bka.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Publikationen/PolizeilicheKriminalstatistik/2022/Bund/Opfer/BU-O-01-T91-Opfer_xls.html https://www.bka.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Publikationen/Pol...
- belorn 3y ago
  There is an interesting aspect when looking at gender in intra-relationship violence. The rate of violence is fairly independent on the gender of the couple, meaning that same-sex relationships has the same rate of violence as any other relationship. This statistical phenomenon mean that women in same-sex relationships are twice as violent as other women, and men in same-sex relationships are about half as violent as other men. The big question then is what (if any) gender specific motivations is causing this to occur.
  - jijijijij 3y ago
    Can you link the source for that? It's not that I would completely dismiss it, I think I read it before, but I still would like to see the meaning of "same" here. I think there are many possible explanations, but one certainly shouldn't be ignored over essentialist ones: Co-morbid mental illness and maladapted behavior in LGBT folks, caused by their upbringing and coping with discrimination or alienation. They usually don't have a blueprint for life and have to make up their own gender and community roles. Then there is all sorts of violence imaginable in relation to "gay panic" and self-acceptance. It may be cishet gender roles and the male archetype finding their way into these relationships. Maybe people are just violent opportunists. (I doubt there are as many murders in F4F relationships...) Maybe there are biological causes. Personally, I think it's misguided to separate sexual orientation and identity as fundamentally different. The whole of "sex difference" is produced by effective androgenic and estrogenic signaling throughout life. Like, a cell has no sex. The Y chromosome does about nothing, except for a brief moment mid development, and everything else is genetically identical. All genes affecting androgen effectiveness are located elsewhere. Funnily enough, the androgen receptor is encoded on the X-chromosome, so typically women got the information twice, making it functionally more robust. Androgens role in aggressiveness is well documented, and it's usually relative levels making the difference. Maybe there is some sort of selective order in the lesbian community too. Things like PCOS come to mind. Or a mix of all... There won't be data to give a definitive answer. Honestly, I think it would be more interesting, if murder rates in M4M relationships were lower or higher. Cause sexual objectification definitely is present in some parts of the gay community. Although often in concert with sexual liberation and reciprocity, and I don't think possessive thinking is frequent.

belorn 3y ago

> In Germany more than half of all murder victims are women. I presume it's not much different in other countries, although gang on gang violence may distort the picture a bit. No? For 2022 in Sweden the numbers were 93 men, 23 women. Men has been overrepresentative by 200% or more for as long as we have statistic data. You can look at the graph at the government statistic department on crime here: https://bra.se/statistik/statistik-om-brottstyper/mord-och-drap.html https://bra.se/statistik/statistik-om-brottstyper/mord-och-d... From that same page, 9% of cases involve violence within a couple relation. It would surprise me if the data looks that much different in other Nordic countries.

almatabata 3y ago
I think he has a better point if he focused on intra-relationship murders. In these cases its usually women who are the victims in most country statistics i have seen. From the swedish one: > I alla 10 fall av dödligt våld i en parrelation 2022 var offret en kvinna, vilket var 5 fall färre jämfört med 2021 => In all 10 cases of fatal violence in a couple relationship in 2022, the victim was a woman.
jijijijij 3y ago
I don't speak Swedish. What's the proportion of gang on gang violence? Because I think it's irrelevant for the argument, as the general population isn't much directly affected by it. In Germany, 2022, there were 114 male and 150 female murder (§ 211 StGB) victims. Mind you, that's all murders, including gang violence. https://www.bka.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Publikationen/PolizeilicheKriminalstatistik/2022/Bund/Opfer/BU-O-01-T91-Opfer_xls.xlsx https://www.bka.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Publikationen/Pol...
- belorn 3y ago
  The number of deaths has increased in the last 10 years by 20%, so say around 20% can be attributed to gang violence? There is no official definition of gang on gang violence in the statistics, so we can only really guess here. One thing of note is that the use of a gun sits at around 50%, which has also had a similar 20% increase in the last 10 years. The gang on gang violence that get media attention usually involve shooting or explosives.