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> The hardest part about learning a language is knowing what to learn. I disagree with this. The hardest part about learning a language is finding content and

> The hardest part about learning a language is knowing what to learn. I disagree with this. The hardest part about learning a language is finding content and resources in the target language that are both engaging and comprehensible at your current level. It's hard to find books, shows, or conversation partners, all the way through that critical awkward stage from beginner to vaguely proficient. The parts of the language you need to learn will reveal themselves to you through your interaction with it. And then, either your brain will figure it out intuitively, or you'll be able to look things up if they remain a mystery. Perhaps being equipped with a base set of phrases will increase your range in the very beginning, but that does involve offloading a lot of comprehension work to your brain's CPU, rather than letting it be handled by your brain's in-built language processor GPU. I'm suspicious about any such strategy for language learning. Context clues that accompany the language input are a much more powerful way to make language comprehensible, compared to memorizing phrases and adding strain to your already busy brain.

barrell 3y ago
I'm not sure we entirely disagree. The idea here is to load your RAM with enough information so you can go and interact with the language, and you have enough critical 'hooks' to start to boot up your GPU. Then once you've done that, you should have some good memories that you can start to commit to long term storage, should you choose (did I go too far with the computer analogies? I feel like it broke down). Either way, I think we say in several places, no app is going to replace the learning that happens from interacting with the content. _That's_ where you actually learn. Our sole purpose is to get you to be able to interact with it as fast as possible, with as little gymnastics as possible.
- boerseth 3y ago
  No, I think you're doing good with that analogy still. My own spitball was half baked anyway. To some extent, conscious consideration of phrases and meanings of things can and do happen, but learning on it as the primary source for comprehension is so painful. And it's what we do in most grammar-heavy courses, and strategies based on memorizing phrases.
  - barrell 3y ago
    A recent example that comes to mind is I wanted to refresh my Italian by watching my favorite TV show in an Italian dub. Even though I can converse in Italian, and quite the show by heart, I couldn’t really follow the program. Loading it up into Phrasing tells me that the most important words to the episode were: conservitorship, inheritance, deep submerge vehicle, treason, philanthropies, ransom, nerve gas, and anaphylactic shock. If I’m going to spend any time on flashcards or SRS, these are the cards I want to learn. Once I know these words, not only could I follow half the episode even if I didn’t speak Italian, but the other 99% of the language in the episode has something to “latch onto” while I’m passively watching it. I fully expect 95% of my progress in Italian to come from watching the tv show. But I expect to be able to significantly improve the speed of that progress with Phrasing.
triyambakam 3y ago
Nicely said. It seems like you're familiar with Krashen's Comprehensible Input Hypothesis? My daughter speaks German and Swedish very proficiently just from watching hours and hours over a few years of ZDF/ARD/usw (German tv networks) and Barnakalan (Swedish kids network) on the iPad. I can't say it was a wise to let her be on the iPad for that many hours a day, but it did work, she did acquire the languages.
- the_third_wave 3y ago
  > Barnakalan Barnkanalen (Barn = children, kanalen = "the channel")
  - triyambakam 3y ago
    Yep! Early morning typo. Thanks
- boerseth 3y ago
  Yes! I'm a big fan, and have even tested the theory out on myself to great effect. I learned French using the series "French in Action", along with certain other sources of input. I was watching and rewatching each episode, and listening on repeat to its audio which I downloaded. Less than a year in I was listening to the radio, and now, two years in, I can listen and read to almost anything online. I'm behind on more casual speech and slang, but am planning to move to France so that I may finally get it. Meanwhile, I have hardly ever had the chance to speak or write it. I seriously doubt that I've "output" more than a hundred sentences. Perhaps I've spoken some gibberish sentences now and then on my my way to work, but never for any practical purpose. Yet my comprehension is doing okay!
  - saintradon 3y ago
    How many hours a day were you putting in?
    - boerseth 3y ago
      To answer your question: I don't know, but probably at least 4 hours of listening a day in the beginning, gradually decreasing. The first few months were intense, I remember. My prioritizing was detrimental to a couple of other aspects of life. Every day I wanted to get in some "active study", i.e. watching the current few episodes of FIA over again, trying to understand more this time of the latest one I was working on. And any free moment I had, walking somewhere or going shopping, I'd pop my earbuds in and listen in a more laid back way. In the very beginning I also figured that my ear and brain needed practice at simply differentiating all these weird new vowels and sounds, so I played French noises almost constantly, including at night and when working. In hindsight, I think only the night time sounds were a smart decision. Yet despite my dedication being a lot and the project affecting my life, I was always somehow ashamed of my lack of conviction and effort, when hearing about other learners doing "AJAT" or equivalents (All Japanese, All the Time). There are crazier stories our there! The sad thing also is that I don't think it would be necessary to go so hard at ot to accomplish what I have. An hour or two a day of more optimal input (what I claim is so hard to find), might get you a really long way in the same amount of time. I do not know. My experiment, however, was testing whether I could acquire a language without speaking it, which it did confirm at least to me.
klipt 3y ago
> It's hard to find books, shows, or conversation partners, all the way through that critical awkward stage from beginner to vaguely proficient. Children's books? Children also learn from scratch. I think an adult reading books targeted to progressively higher ages would do reasonably.
- famouswaffles 3y ago
  Children are native speakers. This is something that doesn't quite hit you until you seriously undertake language learning. assuming we are talking about children's content in general (and not content for babies), you will find that it is not much more comprehensible than the adult stuff. a language learning beginner is nowhere near the command or vocabulary of a child.
  - MostlyStable 3y ago
    Yeah, I've been learning German for about a year and a half now through a combination of traditional classes and duolingo. I'm roughly high A2, low B1. I've tried multiple times to start reading children's books (e.g. Die Kleine Hexe, Emil und die Detektiv, Das doppelte Lottchen, Der Räuber Horzenplotz) which are all, supposedly, for readers under 10. They have a surprisingly large required vocabulary and grasp on the grammar. I think part of the problem is that adult learners learn things in a sequence. They learn one part of grammar, then the next, then the next, so that there are grammar rules and structures that you are almost completely unaware of until pretty far into your learning. Whereas a native child is exposed to the entire language all at once. They don't fully understand everything, but they are aware of all of the different structures. Children's books know this and are written with it in mind, as opposed to things like readers, which restrict their grammar to a particular level. I have a much easier time reading an A2 reader than any actual childrens book.
    - pflenker 3y ago
      I am a native speaker in German and I can tell you that while all the books you listed are children’s books, they are all quite old, and the words and phrases they use are weird, to say the least. Maybe grab a Lustiges Taschenbuch? They’re available almost everywhere, fun to read also for adults and since they are comics, the accompanying images provide context.
Gow8876 3y ago
The hardest part is being consistent and acrually using it. I have seen someone less tha. 80 IQ speaking their native language and understand the grammar better than someone with Havard degree both fluency in speaking and expressing their thoughts. The main reason is one have to use it day in day out, the other learn it as "subject" to past exam. Why so many people use babbel and resulted in not able to use the language. Spend 15mins, while native speakers spent 12hrs a day. Polyglots also use this forced immersion. Except they dont want to "brag" they learn that way. Instead just want to show how easy they learn ... naturally.
- boerseth 3y ago
  Yes, consistency is key, but if you're smart about it, it doesn't have to be hard. The trick is rather to make consistency easy. My own strategy there is aligned with most language enthusiasts: Make your input and conversations engaging! Make them so engaging you partake in those activities independently of the language, or better yet, in spite of the language. Make engagement automatic! As an example, I've come to adore the French YT channel "ScienceEtonnante", and now watch anything published by it ASAP. I started watching it because I have a masters in physics, and found much of the jargon very easy to pick up as it's often similar to English. That left only the particularities of French itself for my brian to figure out. Now that I can simply lean back and enjoy the show, that is also what I do! It has become my favorite YT channel.

barrell 3y ago

I'm not sure we entirely disagree. The idea here is to load your RAM with enough information so you can go and interact with the language, and you have enough critical 'hooks' to start to boot up your GPU. Then once you've done that, you should have some good memories that you can start to commit to long term storage, should you choose (did I go too far with the computer analogies? I feel like it broke down). Either way, I think we say in several places, no app is going to replace the learning that happens from interacting with the content. _That's_ where you actually learn. Our sole purpose is to get you to be able to interact with it as fast as possible, with as little gymnastics as possible.

boerseth 3y ago
No, I think you're doing good with that analogy still. My own spitball was half baked anyway. To some extent, conscious consideration of phrases and meanings of things can and do happen, but learning on it as the primary source for comprehension is so painful. And it's what we do in most grammar-heavy courses, and strategies based on memorizing phrases.
- barrell 3y ago
  A recent example that comes to mind is I wanted to refresh my Italian by watching my favorite TV show in an Italian dub. Even though I can converse in Italian, and quite the show by heart, I couldn’t really follow the program. Loading it up into Phrasing tells me that the most important words to the episode were: conservitorship, inheritance, deep submerge vehicle, treason, philanthropies, ransom, nerve gas, and anaphylactic shock. If I’m going to spend any time on flashcards or SRS, these are the cards I want to learn. Once I know these words, not only could I follow half the episode even if I didn’t speak Italian, but the other 99% of the language in the episode has something to “latch onto” while I’m passively watching it. I fully expect 95% of my progress in Italian to come from watching the tv show. But I expect to be able to significantly improve the speed of that progress with Phrasing.

triyambakam 3y ago

Nicely said. It seems like you're familiar with Krashen's Comprehensible Input Hypothesis? My daughter speaks German and Swedish very proficiently just from watching hours and hours over a few years of ZDF/ARD/usw (German tv networks) and Barnakalan (Swedish kids network) on the iPad. I can't say it was a wise to let her be on the iPad for that many hours a day, but it did work, she did acquire the languages.

the_third_wave 3y ago
> Barnakalan Barnkanalen (Barn = children, kanalen = "the channel")
- triyambakam 3y ago
  Yep! Early morning typo. Thanks
boerseth 3y ago
Yes! I'm a big fan, and have even tested the theory out on myself to great effect. I learned French using the series "French in Action", along with certain other sources of input. I was watching and rewatching each episode, and listening on repeat to its audio which I downloaded. Less than a year in I was listening to the radio, and now, two years in, I can listen and read to almost anything online. I'm behind on more casual speech and slang, but am planning to move to France so that I may finally get it. Meanwhile, I have hardly ever had the chance to speak or write it. I seriously doubt that I've "output" more than a hundred sentences. Perhaps I've spoken some gibberish sentences now and then on my my way to work, but never for any practical purpose. Yet my comprehension is doing okay!
- saintradon 3y ago
  How many hours a day were you putting in?
  - boerseth 3y ago
    To answer your question: I don't know, but probably at least 4 hours of listening a day in the beginning, gradually decreasing. The first few months were intense, I remember. My prioritizing was detrimental to a couple of other aspects of life. Every day I wanted to get in some "active study", i.e. watching the current few episodes of FIA over again, trying to understand more this time of the latest one I was working on. And any free moment I had, walking somewhere or going shopping, I'd pop my earbuds in and listen in a more laid back way. In the very beginning I also figured that my ear and brain needed practice at simply differentiating all these weird new vowels and sounds, so I played French noises almost constantly, including at night and when working. In hindsight, I think only the night time sounds were a smart decision. Yet despite my dedication being a lot and the project affecting my life, I was always somehow ashamed of my lack of conviction and effort, when hearing about other learners doing "AJAT" or equivalents (All Japanese, All the Time). There are crazier stories our there! The sad thing also is that I don't think it would be necessary to go so hard at ot to accomplish what I have. An hour or two a day of more optimal input (what I claim is so hard to find), might get you a really long way in the same amount of time. I do not know. My experiment, however, was testing whether I could acquire a language without speaking it, which it did confirm at least to me.

klipt 3y ago

> It's hard to find books, shows, or conversation partners, all the way through that critical awkward stage from beginner to vaguely proficient. Children's books? Children also learn from scratch. I think an adult reading books targeted to progressively higher ages would do reasonably.

famouswaffles 3y ago
Children are native speakers. This is something that doesn't quite hit you until you seriously undertake language learning. assuming we are talking about children's content in general (and not content for babies), you will find that it is not much more comprehensible than the adult stuff. a language learning beginner is nowhere near the command or vocabulary of a child.
- MostlyStable 3y ago
  Yeah, I've been learning German for about a year and a half now through a combination of traditional classes and duolingo. I'm roughly high A2, low B1. I've tried multiple times to start reading children's books (e.g. Die Kleine Hexe, Emil und die Detektiv, Das doppelte Lottchen, Der Räuber Horzenplotz) which are all, supposedly, for readers under 10. They have a surprisingly large required vocabulary and grasp on the grammar. I think part of the problem is that adult learners learn things in a sequence. They learn one part of grammar, then the next, then the next, so that there are grammar rules and structures that you are almost completely unaware of until pretty far into your learning. Whereas a native child is exposed to the entire language all at once. They don't fully understand everything, but they are aware of all of the different structures. Children's books know this and are written with it in mind, as opposed to things like readers, which restrict their grammar to a particular level. I have a much easier time reading an A2 reader than any actual childrens book.
  - pflenker 3y ago
    I am a native speaker in German and I can tell you that while all the books you listed are children’s books, they are all quite old, and the words and phrases they use are weird, to say the least. Maybe grab a Lustiges Taschenbuch? They’re available almost everywhere, fun to read also for adults and since they are comics, the accompanying images provide context.

Gow8876 3y ago

The hardest part is being consistent and acrually using it. I have seen someone less tha. 80 IQ speaking their native language and understand the grammar better than someone with Havard degree both fluency in speaking and expressing their thoughts. The main reason is one have to use it day in day out, the other learn it as "subject" to past exam. Why so many people use babbel and resulted in not able to use the language. Spend 15mins, while native speakers spent 12hrs a day. Polyglots also use this forced immersion. Except they dont want to "brag" they learn that way. Instead just want to show how easy they learn ... naturally.

boerseth 3y ago
Yes, consistency is key, but if you're smart about it, it doesn't have to be hard. The trick is rather to make consistency easy. My own strategy there is aligned with most language enthusiasts: Make your input and conversations engaging! Make them so engaging you partake in those activities independently of the language, or better yet, in spite of the language. Make engagement automatic! As an example, I've come to adore the French YT channel "ScienceEtonnante", and now watch anything published by it ASAP. I started watching it because I have a masters in physics, and found much of the jargon very easy to pick up as it's often similar to English. That left only the particularities of French itself for my brian to figure out. Now that I can simply lean back and enjoy the show, that is also what I do! It has become my favorite YT channel.