4 ms·

> Intelligent spiders prevent expansion into Mirkwood. How is that evil?

by soperj 3y ago

s1artibartfast 3y ago
They trick, kill, and consume humanoids.
- soperj 3y ago
  It's just defence, same as what the humanoids are doing.
  - saalweachter 3y ago
    They're violating the rule: "Food that talks is not food." [0] You can use a framework of moral relativism where intelligent spiders have no need to adhere to human-centric rules, and all, but I prefer the moral absolutism that no one who can understand I don't want to be eaten is morally permitted to eat me. [0] https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2003-11-30 https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2003-11-30
    - soperj 3y ago
      It's kind of ignoring the history of cannibalism within the human race. It's tempting to say that we're past that, but most stuff comes back into vogue at some point in time.
    - BiteCode_dev 3y ago
      There is not a single animal that wants to be eaten, what are you talking about? We just draw a line saying: this is ok, this is not, arbitrarily. Nobody, nothing, wants to suffer. That's one of the rare things life universally agrees on. There is no need for words to express that. And I think it's ok to do so, but if we can eat whales, octopus, and take cows and chickens and make their existence hell until we consume them, labeling a spider as "evil" because it likes eating humans is far fetched.
      - saalweachter 3y ago
        I mean, my moral framework may be simple, but it's consistent, and more importantly, it makes it morally impermissible to kill and eat me. If the giant spiders were unintelligent, they'd not be moral actors, and then eating people might be a bad thing, but it wouldn't be a morally bad (evil) thing. If their prey weren't intelligent, my moral framework doesn't (currently) include an absolute prohibition on killing and eating animals, so that would be morally acceptable. But because both the spider and their prey were intelligent, my rules kick in and it is immoral for the spiders to eat people, or vice versa. (Now, there may be a loophole in that killing people for the purposes of eating them is always unacceptable, but there are circumstances where it is at least forgivable to kill [eg, self defense], and also circumstances where it is likewise acceptable to eat already dead intelligent creatures, but you have to be careful not to create a moral hazard where the killing is done on a pretext.)
    - havblue 3y ago
      I'll note that Aragog in Harry Potter, an intelligent spider who wanted to feed Harry and Ron to her spawn, isn't likely evil. She isn't exactly good either of course. I think the "evil" concept is baked into the themes of the books. While men are capable of evil, Shelob, Morgoth, Sauron etc are basically the embodiment of sin and incapable of good. So the only way you can say they aren't evil is if you ignore the prose and judge them by their actions against the worst humanity can accomplish.
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    It isn't defense. They target non-aggressive travelers. Furthermore, Intelligent spiders in the Tolkien universe are canonically descended from primordial evil, and are characterized by a predatory hunger and lack of compassion.
    - soperj 3y ago
      I'm literally replying to the quote: > Intelligent spiders prevent expansion into Mirkwood. Doesn't sound like targeting non-aggressive travelers.
      - s1artibartfast 3y ago
        That quote isn't a self-contained description of the entire Tolkien universe, and pointing back to it isn't a rebuttal of additional information. You may have made some assumptions based on it, but those assumptions were wrong. Furthermore, "preventing expansion" does not necessarily imply morally acceptable self defense.
        soperj 3y ago
        I don't see any additional information, only your opinion on the subject.
        s1artibartfast 3y ago
        I didn't present any personal opinions, just additional facts and context from the books. If you want to ignore it and latch onto some misguided moral relativist notion about the spiders being good an defensive, fine. However, the books and author literally says the opposite. The spiders are Tolkien equivalent of demon spawn, have invaded the forest, and now pretty on travelers.
        soperj 3y ago
        > the books and author literally says the opposite Should be easy to find a quote then.
havblue 3y ago
Shelob and other descendants of Ungoliant are certainly evil. "But still she was there, who was there before Sauron, and before the first stone of Barad-dûr; and she served none but herself, drinking the blood of Elves and Men, bloated and grown fat with endless brooding on her feasts, weaving webs of shadow; for all living things were her food, and her vomit darkness." Now if you're interested in non-evil spiders I highly recommend deepness in the sky by Vernor Vinge.
- elijaht 3y ago
  More non-evil spiders: Children of Time, by Adrian Tchaikovsky
- soperj 3y ago
  Pretty one-sided view. Elves and Men both feast and eat living things as well.
  - harimau777 3y ago
    Most people don't eat species with human level intelligence.
    - soperj 3y ago
      Only because we've killed most of the whales already.
    - BiteCode_dev 3y ago
      The fact that it's what makes it not evil is a huge philosophical debate. Also we did enslaved our own, raped them, and killed them, pretending they were not intelligent and didn't have a soul. We do eat octopus, which have demonstrated level of intelligence close to a human child. Also, suffering is not proportional to intelligence, are you evil because you make life suffers, or because it understands how you do it ? I don't think it's that clear cut. And I'm not sure we would stop to eat beef if tomorrow somebody proved they are quite smart. The orgies of meat we bath into based on factories that turn chickens and cows existences into support to grow protein and nothing else does remind me of the spider.
angiosperm 3y ago
You probably need to read Kirill Yeskov's version of the story: https://archive.org/details/TheLastRingbearerSecondEdition https://archive.org/details/TheLastRingbearerSecondEdition
jerf 3y ago
This is Tolkien, not a nihilistic modern fantasy series. The spiders are evil almost by definition. See the Silmarillion as to the details within the universe. If you have a problem with that, feel free to headcanon it away. I don't care. But in terms of understanding the world of JRR Tolkien at least as written, they're evil. Not just misunderstood, but actively in the service of the outright destruction of the world, lacking only the agency to do so.

> Intelligent spiders prevent expansion into Mirkwood. How is that evil?

by soperj 3y ago

> Intelligent spiders prevent expansion into Mirkwood. How is that evil?

s1artibartfast 3y ago

They trick, kill, and consume humanoids.

soperj 3y ago
It's just defence, same as what the humanoids are doing.
- saalweachter 3y ago
  They're violating the rule: "Food that talks is not food." [0] You can use a framework of moral relativism where intelligent spiders have no need to adhere to human-centric rules, and all, but I prefer the moral absolutism that no one who can understand I don't want to be eaten is morally permitted to eat me. [0] https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2003-11-30 https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2003-11-30
  - soperj 3y ago
    It's kind of ignoring the history of cannibalism within the human race. It's tempting to say that we're past that, but most stuff comes back into vogue at some point in time.
  - BiteCode_dev 3y ago
    There is not a single animal that wants to be eaten, what are you talking about? We just draw a line saying: this is ok, this is not, arbitrarily. Nobody, nothing, wants to suffer. That's one of the rare things life universally agrees on. There is no need for words to express that. And I think it's ok to do so, but if we can eat whales, octopus, and take cows and chickens and make their existence hell until we consume them, labeling a spider as "evil" because it likes eating humans is far fetched.
    - saalweachter 3y ago
      I mean, my moral framework may be simple, but it's consistent, and more importantly, it makes it morally impermissible to kill and eat me. If the giant spiders were unintelligent, they'd not be moral actors, and then eating people might be a bad thing, but it wouldn't be a morally bad (evil) thing. If their prey weren't intelligent, my moral framework doesn't (currently) include an absolute prohibition on killing and eating animals, so that would be morally acceptable. But because both the spider and their prey were intelligent, my rules kick in and it is immoral for the spiders to eat people, or vice versa. (Now, there may be a loophole in that killing people for the purposes of eating them is always unacceptable, but there are circumstances where it is at least forgivable to kill [eg, self defense], and also circumstances where it is likewise acceptable to eat already dead intelligent creatures, but you have to be careful not to create a moral hazard where the killing is done on a pretext.)
  - havblue 3y ago
    I'll note that Aragog in Harry Potter, an intelligent spider who wanted to feed Harry and Ron to her spawn, isn't likely evil. She isn't exactly good either of course. I think the "evil" concept is baked into the themes of the books. While men are capable of evil, Shelob, Morgoth, Sauron etc are basically the embodiment of sin and incapable of good. So the only way you can say they aren't evil is if you ignore the prose and judge them by their actions against the worst humanity can accomplish.
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  It isn't defense. They target non-aggressive travelers. Furthermore, Intelligent spiders in the Tolkien universe are canonically descended from primordial evil, and are characterized by a predatory hunger and lack of compassion.
  - soperj 3y ago
    I'm literally replying to the quote: > Intelligent spiders prevent expansion into Mirkwood. Doesn't sound like targeting non-aggressive travelers.
    - s1artibartfast 3y ago
      That quote isn't a self-contained description of the entire Tolkien universe, and pointing back to it isn't a rebuttal of additional information. You may have made some assumptions based on it, but those assumptions were wrong. Furthermore, "preventing expansion" does not necessarily imply morally acceptable self defense.
      - soperj 3y ago
        I don't see any additional information, only your opinion on the subject.
        s1artibartfast 3y ago
        I didn't present any personal opinions, just additional facts and context from the books. If you want to ignore it and latch onto some misguided moral relativist notion about the spiders being good an defensive, fine. However, the books and author literally says the opposite. The spiders are Tolkien equivalent of demon spawn, have invaded the forest, and now pretty on travelers.
        soperj 3y ago
        > the books and author literally says the opposite Should be easy to find a quote then.

havblue 3y ago

Shelob and other descendants of Ungoliant are certainly evil. "But still she was there, who was there before Sauron, and before the first stone of Barad-dûr; and she served none but herself, drinking the blood of Elves and Men, bloated and grown fat with endless brooding on her feasts, weaving webs of shadow; for all living things were her food, and her vomit darkness." Now if you're interested in non-evil spiders I highly recommend deepness in the sky by Vernor Vinge.

elijaht 3y ago
More non-evil spiders: Children of Time, by Adrian Tchaikovsky
soperj 3y ago
Pretty one-sided view. Elves and Men both feast and eat living things as well.
- harimau777 3y ago
  Most people don't eat species with human level intelligence.
  - soperj 3y ago
    Only because we've killed most of the whales already.
  - BiteCode_dev 3y ago
    The fact that it's what makes it not evil is a huge philosophical debate. Also we did enslaved our own, raped them, and killed them, pretending they were not intelligent and didn't have a soul. We do eat octopus, which have demonstrated level of intelligence close to a human child. Also, suffering is not proportional to intelligence, are you evil because you make life suffers, or because it understands how you do it ? I don't think it's that clear cut. And I'm not sure we would stop to eat beef if tomorrow somebody proved they are quite smart. The orgies of meat we bath into based on factories that turn chickens and cows existences into support to grow protein and nothing else does remind me of the spider.

angiosperm 3y ago

You probably need to read Kirill Yeskov's version of the story: https://archive.org/details/TheLastRingbearerSecondEdition https://archive.org/details/TheLastRingbearerSecondEdition

jerf 3y ago

This is Tolkien, not a nihilistic modern fantasy series. The spiders are evil almost by definition. See the Silmarillion as to the details within the universe. If you have a problem with that, feel free to headcanon it away. I don't care. But in terms of understanding the world of JRR Tolkien at least as written, they're evil. Not just misunderstood, but actively in the service of the outright destruction of the world, lacking only the agency to do so.