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When I use the word "mythology", I mean it to apply to any set of correlated beliefs. All religions have their mythologies, yes. But so do cultures and nations

When I use the word "mythology", I mean it to apply to any set of correlated beliefs. All religions have their mythologies, yes. But so do cultures and nations and corporations and universities and friend groups. I think I see your agenda here though. Atheists have done terrible things. Adolf, Joseph, Pol. If you choose these folks as representatives of atheism (or, of what happens when you don't have a supreme accountability) then sure. They constructed a non-Christian(etc) mythology that was not competitive with their own supremacy, and did bad things with the power derived. I think we agree here. But I don't view "atheism" as an organization or a correlated set of beliefs. You can choose to argue about "Atheism" and disagree. But we're talking about different things. See also "[Dd]emocratic", "[Ll]iberal", "[Ll]ibertarian", etc.

trelane 3y ago
> I think I see your agenda here though. My agenda is to make you (and those reading the thread) consider your own movement critically, instead of perpetuating your own mythology. > Atheists have done terrible things. Adolf, Joseph, Pol. If you choose these folks as representatives of atheism (or, of what happens when you don't have a supreme accountability) then sure. They constructed a non-Christian(etc) mythology that was not competitive with their own supremacy, and did bad things with the power derived. I think we agree here. So, by that logic, Christianity cannot be blamed for the inquisition and atrocities committed during the crusades, since it's on those in command of those movements (the Pope) and not based on christianity itself. > But I don't view "atheism" as an organization or a correlated set of beliefs. That strikes me as deliberately obtuse. > You can choose to argue about "Atheism" and disagree. But we're talking about different things. Again, you're not being intellectually honest here. You're defining terms so that you don't have to admit that atheism (and sects thereof) have their own mythologies and revisionist histories. Your efforts above to extricate atheism from the atrocities committed by sects of atheism, even those committed those to convert the heretics, rather highlight that fact.
- quesera 3y ago
  You have me all wrong. I am a part of no movement. I have never once been in a group of people (more than two) where the discussion was about religion and where agreement (with me) was had. It's just not a part of my life. I do not think there is a mythology around atheism. This was my question to you, effectively. Atheism is literally the lack of belief in a god. Yes there are people who have constructed belief systems around that lack of belief, but those are not necessary to meet the definition. There is no complex set of beliefs necessary to be an atheist. Just one lack of belief. Anything on top of that is something other than atheism. There are no sects of atheism. But maybe of Atheism-as-you-understand-it. You claim I'm being intellectually dishonest here, but I maintain that we are talking about different things. I'm still curious about the "historical fiction" of any version of (your) "Atheism", but I don't think I'm going to get a conversation about that at this point. If you're talking about the mythologies created by our friends Adolf, Joseph, and Pol -- then you are really stretching. They used anti-religionism (which is not atheism) as a vehicle for their own crazy/evil. I also do not blame Christianity for the Inquisition, although I do blame (bad) Christians for it! It seems that you feel attacked in your beliefs by a vocal minority of atheists. That sucks, absolutely. But militant Theists have far more power in this world than militant atheists. The latter are just rabble-rousers. I am fully aware that tolerant Christians exist. But as intolerants go, the atheists have nothing on the Christians. At least not in terms of numbers or influence. I wish we could ignore the militant Christians as easily as we can ignore the militant atheists.
- callalex 3y ago
  What is an atheist movement? Who is in charge? What are the goals?
  - trelane 3y ago
    Who is in charge of Christianity?
    - the_af 3y ago
      It would be better if you answered a direct question. But there are definitely religious leaders and sources of authority: your congregation, the Pope, your Rabbi, your Imam, your scriptures. There is no such thing for atheism.
    - buttercraft 3y ago
      This is a Dodge.
- the_af 3y ago
  It seems to me you're equivocating the issue. There is no "atheist movement", nor is it something about "the left" (like you mentioned earlier). There are, of course, rightwing atheists. Atheist do not self-organize as "a movement". Yes, there is the "Brights" thing and other such nonsense with little to no traction. And it's just a marginal group of people who think they are better, anyway. Atheism is not a religion or movement "opposed" to traditional mainstream religions like Christianity, Islam, etc. It is, quite simply, the lack of belief in the existence of a god and usually anything supernatural. There is no "fiction" to it, no mythologies that go with it. There's no innate belief with "the movement of atheism" that being an atheist makes you a good person, for example; or that being religious makes you a bad person. The condemnation of the crimes committed in the name of organized religion do not require one to be an atheist -- plenty of religious people condemn the Inquisition. Likewise, it's perfectly common to be atheist and acknowledge the crimes committed by non-religious against religious people. There's no mythology and no movement to go with it. There are as many kinds of atheists as there are people who do not believe in a god. And no, it's not "the same" with religious people, because unlike religious people atheists do not recognize a source of "atheist" authority -- there's no scripture, no Pope, no Rabbi, no Imam, no person or object of unquestionable authority. In order to be an atheist, you just have to not believe in gods. There's no "atheist" path to living a good life, no guideline, no set of rules. There's no movement.
  - trelane 3y ago
    > Yes, there is the "Brights" thing and other such nonsense with little to no traction. And it's just a marginal group of people who think they are better, anyway. Huh. Sounds like almost any other religion. > [Atheism] is, quite simply, the lack of belief in the existence of a god This is incorrect. Agnosticism is the lack of belief in a god. Contrast this with atheism, which is the belief in the lack of a god. > There's no movement. There's as much an Atheism movement as there is a Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc.
    - the_af 3y ago
      I'm going to be level with you here: it sounds as if you're being dishonest. > Huh. Sounds like almost any other religion. I preempted this comment and you ignored it. No, it's not like any other religion, because "Brights" is not a "movement" of atheism (unlike say Catholicism for Christianity) because the Brights just happen to be a group of people who happen to be atheists, and have no major influence on atheism nor are they any kind of authority over even a fraction of atheists (nor do they claim to be). They don't prescribe anything over atheism nor do they hold any authority over it, not even a tiny fraction of it. More importantly, atheism is not even a religion. Yes, I know you are going to claim this (it's your angle, and it's best if you admit it early on. No point hiding it. It's been attempted and refuted thousands of times before, so let's get on with it). > This is incorrect. Agnosticism is the lack of belief in a god. Contrast this with atheism, which is the belief in the lack of a god. You are wrong, but that's splitting hairs anyway. Before we go down this rabbit hole though, best get back on track and examine your assertion that there's an atheist "historical fiction". You haven't spoken one word about this, and instead got sidetracked into pointless distractions. > There's as much an Atheism movement as there is a Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc. Do you want to argue honestly? I know you don't believe this. You can make a (mistaken, in my opinion) argument about atheism as a secular religion, or about atheist "beliefs", but no-one will seriously consider atheism a movement similar to Christianity, Islam, etc. If you want to be taken seriously, make serious arguments. Otherwise you just come across as dishonest.
bee_rider 3y ago
Nazi germany had a weird relationship with Christianity; the country was overwhelmingly religious, the party had some rabid anti-Christian views at the top and seemed to view it as a competing power structure incompatible with their plans, but seems to have decided to put off that fight for later. > In public speeches, he portrayed himself and the Nazi movement as faithful Christians.[42][43] In 1928 Hitler said in a speech: "We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity... in fact our movement is Christian."[44] But, according to the Goebbels Diaries, Hitler hated Christianity. In an 8 April 1941 entry, Goebbels wrote "He hates Christianity, because it has crippled all that is noble in humanity." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany I mean, if his public speeches describe it as a Christian movement and his right hand man’s private journals describe him as a secret atheist… I dunno, I think it is just typical Nazi incoherence on topics not related to racial hatred. In general I think it is hard to work out whether a historical figure believes in anything other than power. I’m not sure it makes sense to attribute the evil actions of individual leaders to particular religious belief systems without some pretty deep scrutiny. If you just go by the beliefs they profess, you get a list of which belief systems were popular, because those are the belief systems they went to co-opt.
wharvle 3y ago
The real monsters, and with the most dangerous beliefs and mythology, which are just as much beliefs and mythology as the religious despite their protests that claiming they have beliefs or mythology or even are anything is nonsensical, are the [whatever the word is for not believing in the reality of Russell's Teapot]-ists. You'd be shocked how many horrible people were part of that movement! Don't get me started on the non-IPUists.

trelane 3y ago

> I think I see your agenda here though. My agenda is to make you (and those reading the thread) consider your own movement critically, instead of perpetuating your own mythology. > Atheists have done terrible things. Adolf, Joseph, Pol. If you choose these folks as representatives of atheism (or, of what happens when you don't have a supreme accountability) then sure. They constructed a non-Christian(etc) mythology that was not competitive with their own supremacy, and did bad things with the power derived. I think we agree here. So, by that logic, Christianity cannot be blamed for the inquisition and atrocities committed during the crusades, since it's on those in command of those movements (the Pope) and not based on christianity itself. > But I don't view "atheism" as an organization or a correlated set of beliefs. That strikes me as deliberately obtuse. > You can choose to argue about "Atheism" and disagree. But we're talking about different things. Again, you're not being intellectually honest here. You're defining terms so that you don't have to admit that atheism (and sects thereof) have their own mythologies and revisionist histories. Your efforts above to extricate atheism from the atrocities committed by sects of atheism, even those committed those to convert the heretics, rather highlight that fact.

quesera 3y ago
You have me all wrong. I am a part of no movement. I have never once been in a group of people (more than two) where the discussion was about religion and where agreement (with me) was had. It's just not a part of my life. I do not think there is a mythology around atheism. This was my question to you, effectively. Atheism is literally the lack of belief in a god. Yes there are people who have constructed belief systems around that lack of belief, but those are not necessary to meet the definition. There is no complex set of beliefs necessary to be an atheist. Just one lack of belief. Anything on top of that is something other than atheism. There are no sects of atheism. But maybe of Atheism-as-you-understand-it. You claim I'm being intellectually dishonest here, but I maintain that we are talking about different things. I'm still curious about the "historical fiction" of any version of (your) "Atheism", but I don't think I'm going to get a conversation about that at this point. If you're talking about the mythologies created by our friends Adolf, Joseph, and Pol -- then you are really stretching. They used anti-religionism (which is not atheism) as a vehicle for their own crazy/evil. I also do not blame Christianity for the Inquisition, although I do blame (bad) Christians for it! It seems that you feel attacked in your beliefs by a vocal minority of atheists. That sucks, absolutely. But militant Theists have far more power in this world than militant atheists. The latter are just rabble-rousers. I am fully aware that tolerant Christians exist. But as intolerants go, the atheists have nothing on the Christians. At least not in terms of numbers or influence. I wish we could ignore the militant Christians as easily as we can ignore the militant atheists.
callalex 3y ago
What is an atheist movement? Who is in charge? What are the goals?
- trelane 3y ago
  Who is in charge of Christianity?
  - the_af 3y ago
    It would be better if you answered a direct question. But there are definitely religious leaders and sources of authority: your congregation, the Pope, your Rabbi, your Imam, your scriptures. There is no such thing for atheism.
  - buttercraft 3y ago
    This is a Dodge.
the_af 3y ago
It seems to me you're equivocating the issue. There is no "atheist movement", nor is it something about "the left" (like you mentioned earlier). There are, of course, rightwing atheists. Atheist do not self-organize as "a movement". Yes, there is the "Brights" thing and other such nonsense with little to no traction. And it's just a marginal group of people who think they are better, anyway. Atheism is not a religion or movement "opposed" to traditional mainstream religions like Christianity, Islam, etc. It is, quite simply, the lack of belief in the existence of a god and usually anything supernatural. There is no "fiction" to it, no mythologies that go with it. There's no innate belief with "the movement of atheism" that being an atheist makes you a good person, for example; or that being religious makes you a bad person. The condemnation of the crimes committed in the name of organized religion do not require one to be an atheist -- plenty of religious people condemn the Inquisition. Likewise, it's perfectly common to be atheist and acknowledge the crimes committed by non-religious against religious people. There's no mythology and no movement to go with it. There are as many kinds of atheists as there are people who do not believe in a god. And no, it's not "the same" with religious people, because unlike religious people atheists do not recognize a source of "atheist" authority -- there's no scripture, no Pope, no Rabbi, no Imam, no person or object of unquestionable authority. In order to be an atheist, you just have to not believe in gods. There's no "atheist" path to living a good life, no guideline, no set of rules. There's no movement.
- trelane 3y ago
  > Yes, there is the "Brights" thing and other such nonsense with little to no traction. And it's just a marginal group of people who think they are better, anyway. Huh. Sounds like almost any other religion. > [Atheism] is, quite simply, the lack of belief in the existence of a god This is incorrect. Agnosticism is the lack of belief in a god. Contrast this with atheism, which is the belief in the lack of a god. > There's no movement. There's as much an Atheism movement as there is a Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc.
  - the_af 3y ago
    I'm going to be level with you here: it sounds as if you're being dishonest. > Huh. Sounds like almost any other religion. I preempted this comment and you ignored it. No, it's not like any other religion, because "Brights" is not a "movement" of atheism (unlike say Catholicism for Christianity) because the Brights just happen to be a group of people who happen to be atheists, and have no major influence on atheism nor are they any kind of authority over even a fraction of atheists (nor do they claim to be). They don't prescribe anything over atheism nor do they hold any authority over it, not even a tiny fraction of it. More importantly, atheism is not even a religion. Yes, I know you are going to claim this (it's your angle, and it's best if you admit it early on. No point hiding it. It's been attempted and refuted thousands of times before, so let's get on with it). > This is incorrect. Agnosticism is the lack of belief in a god. Contrast this with atheism, which is the belief in the lack of a god. You are wrong, but that's splitting hairs anyway. Before we go down this rabbit hole though, best get back on track and examine your assertion that there's an atheist "historical fiction". You haven't spoken one word about this, and instead got sidetracked into pointless distractions. > There's as much an Atheism movement as there is a Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc. Do you want to argue honestly? I know you don't believe this. You can make a (mistaken, in my opinion) argument about atheism as a secular religion, or about atheist "beliefs", but no-one will seriously consider atheism a movement similar to Christianity, Islam, etc. If you want to be taken seriously, make serious arguments. Otherwise you just come across as dishonest.

bee_rider 3y ago

Nazi germany had a weird relationship with Christianity; the country was overwhelmingly religious, the party had some rabid anti-Christian views at the top and seemed to view it as a competing power structure incompatible with their plans, but seems to have decided to put off that fight for later. > In public speeches, he portrayed himself and the Nazi movement as faithful Christians.[42][43] In 1928 Hitler said in a speech: "We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity... in fact our movement is Christian."[44] But, according to the Goebbels Diaries, Hitler hated Christianity. In an 8 April 1941 entry, Goebbels wrote "He hates Christianity, because it has crippled all that is noble in humanity." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany I mean, if his public speeches describe it as a Christian movement and his right hand man’s private journals describe him as a secret atheist… I dunno, I think it is just typical Nazi incoherence on topics not related to racial hatred. In general I think it is hard to work out whether a historical figure believes in anything other than power. I’m not sure it makes sense to attribute the evil actions of individual leaders to particular religious belief systems without some pretty deep scrutiny. If you just go by the beliefs they profess, you get a list of which belief systems were popular, because those are the belief systems they went to co-opt.

wharvle 3y ago

The real monsters, and with the most dangerous beliefs and mythology, which are just as much beliefs and mythology as the religious despite their protests that claiming they have beliefs or mythology or even are anything is nonsensical, are the [whatever the word is for not believing in the reality of Russell's Teapot]-ists. You'd be shocked how many horrible people were part of that movement! Don't get me started on the non-IPUists.