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This is pretty grueling work requiring you to operate heavy machinery, be away from your family for days, and drive mundane hour after hour. Why wouldn’t it be

This is pretty grueling work requiring you to operate heavy machinery, be away from your family for days, and drive mundane hour after hour. Why wouldn’t it be highly paid?

ecf 3y ago
Because it’s a task that teenagers are expected to do safely? Driving as a profession does not require skill.
- imgabe 3y ago
  Teenagers are not expected to drive 18-wheelers for 12 hours a day.
  - selimthegrim 3y ago
    My dad drove coal trucks from Cleveland to Toledo at 16 in the 70s so yes, some are. Was it fully legal? I doubt it.
    - imgabe 3y ago
      If it’s illegal, then it’s not something that’s expected of them.
      - selimthegrim 3y ago
        You live a charmed life.
        imgabe 3y ago
        I think we're talking past each other. I took "expected" to mean "expected by society in general". Teenagers are generally expected to get regular driver's licenses and learn how to drive a car (although many of them don't even do that anymore). It is not common for people to expect a teenager to have a commercial driver's license and know how to operate an 18-wheeler. Now, is it possible that in the 1970s your dad had an unhinged boss who expected a 16 year old to reliably operate commercial trucks without any training? Is it possible your dad is an exceptional driver who managed to do this? Sure, both of those things are possible. Is it a reasonable thing to expect from any randomly selected teenager? No.
- kome 3y ago
  > Driving as a profession does not require skill. how can say this with a straight face?
  - Symbiote 3y ago
    Didn't everyone play Euro Truck Simulator (or whatever it was), when it went viral as a daft video game of the year? I got stuck going round the first corner, then got lost, then gave up when I had to back the trailer into the loading bay. https://eurotrucksimulator2.com/ https://eurotrucksimulator2.com/
- epiccoleman 3y ago
  The kind of driving that teenagers are expected to do is wildly different from trucking. The biggest vehicle I've ever driven was a U-Haul and even that requires more focus and care than regular driving. Add another 25 feet of length, a trailer which can rotate independently of the vehicle, and tight timetables into the mix, and you're certainly looking at more skill than the average driver needs.
- eropple 3y ago
  Forget eighteen-wheelers, which are rolling geometry problems: ever driven a solid-axle flatbed? Come back and tell us that that doesn't "require skill".
  - ecf 3y ago
    I learned from a young age how to drive with a trailer, and I have experience with 30ft fifth-wheels.
    - brnt 3y ago
      If it requires no skill, you can do it as well as I (I've never driven either). Wanna bet?
    - kamaal 3y ago
      This reminds me of the time when coding was popular among high schoolers and people were saying coding jobs will be 0 as kids will be building mainframes in days. It turns out its one thing to do a thing for fun or small periods totally a different ball game when you have to do it at scale. Im guessing a lot of people who can play a chord or two like to imagine it can't be that hard to be a concert musician either. Everything changes at scale and when it has to be done seriously.
- maxsilver 3y ago
  Come back and say this, after you've gotten a CDL Class A
  - ecf 3y ago
    My best friend’s brother in law recently paid a CDL mill to get a license. Took him less than a month. Miss me with the demanded respect for an industry that will be replaced in a couple decades.
- bdcravens 3y ago
  > ....as a profession does not require skill Some might say the same about gluing together boilerplate in modern development frameworks. At the end of the day, skill is only relevant for competition within a given industry. The pay scale for any given field is based on the value they provide the employers (which is why grown men playing children's games are paid millions of dollars)
philomath_mn 3y ago
That isn't how wages are set. It's a combination of supply, demand, and the business value of services rendered. Trucking is a hard job which affects the supply of drivers, but this is offset by the fairly low barrier to entry to trucking.
- randomdata 3y ago
  > It's a combination of supply, demand, and the business value of services rendered. Just supply and demand. Demand is a function of that business value (among other attributes).
  - philomath_mn 3y ago
    Good point!
dewey 3y ago
> Why wouldn’t it be highly paid? There's many jobs that are probably even worse and paid less. The only reason it's highly paid is because the competition for it is higher: "at the time it was because of a “shortage” of truck drivers."
- throwaway44773 3y ago
  The barrier to entry to driving a truck is a few months of training so the amount of people that can become truck drivers is quite large. However, the social status of driving a truck is quite low and there is a constant threat of automating the job away. Not to mention the terrible working conditions.
  - Teever 3y ago
    The barrier to entry for driving a truck is greater than just the time it takes to do the training. To pass the training you need to be a competent driver. It isn't as easy as you make it out to be and the pool of people who can become truck drivers is smaller than you think it is.
    - throwaway44773 3y ago
      Having a driver's license is basically table stakes for having a job in the United States. There are exceptions if you live in dense areas with good public transit, or you can work from home.
      - madars 3y ago
        CDL != regular driver's license. Does an average driver know how to operate air brakes or prevent jack-knifing or what to do with a runaway engine? Trucking is a highly specialized job and requires more aptitude than ordinary driving.
      - vel0city 3y ago
        Loads of people with driver's licenses can barely operate a sedan. Passing a CDL exam and not constantly getting into accidents driving a massive truck is a completely different thing. Loads of drivers fret parallel parking. Imagine the difficulty of moving a 54' trailer perfectly straight into a bay at the bottom of a narrow ramp and not crushing anything in comparison to regular parallel parking.
emptybits 3y ago
Your reasoning is somewhat sound. History has not been so generous. Source: son of a trucker. Also consider that minimal academic education and minimal specialized training is often sufficient to do the work. So the supply of those willing to do the work has often exceeded demand, so there's naturally downward pressure on pay.
manicennui 3y ago
Working at Long John Silvers was also grueling work and I was always covered in grease and received minor burns from time to time. The job can be learned by almost anyone in a couple weeks though. Physical difficulty has almost nothing to do with compensation.
DiggyJohnson 3y ago
I don't mean to sound snarky, but do you actually believe that's how wages are often set, or are you describing an ideal? These sorts of comments confuse me because they seem to be making an argument by explicitly confusing is from ought as an intentional rhetorical technique.
- randomdata 3y ago
  > do you actually believe that's how wages are often set He'd be wrong if he thought anything else. Obviously supply and demand always determines price. There is no question on that front. The only problem with the previous comment, perhaps, is thinking that this particular gruelling/isolating work leads to fewer people being willing to drive the trucks than actually happens. The reality is the average trucker running typical routes isn't really experiencing anything all that gruelling/isolating in the grand scheme of things, so it is a more attractive career than suggested. It's not a cushy programming job by any stretch, but it's still quite comfortable compared to a lot of work out there. The general premise is valid, though. There are clear examples of other, albeit arguably more, gruelling/isolating work that can't get anyone to even consider the job without big dollar signs. He is just overestimating how undesirable trucking in particular is. For a lot of people, trucking is their ideal career. But, in fairness, the comment was in reply to an article that suggests, at least for some routes, that there is trouble attracting drivers. So it wasn’t exactly off-base. The original article may be.
bdcravens 3y ago
My father was an elementary school janitor and worked harder in a day than I work in a month. However, I make multiples of what he made (even adjusted for inflation, though jobs at the bottom of the pay scale haven't risen like that over the years) All that said, I think the question isn't whether the pay is acceptable, but why Walmart pays so much relative to other companies, where the drivers do pretty much the same job.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

This is pretty grueling work requiring you to operate heavy machinery, be away from your family for days, and drive mundane hour after hour. Why wouldn’t it be highly paid?

ecf 3y ago

Because it’s a task that teenagers are expected to do safely? Driving as a profession does not require skill.

imgabe 3y ago
Teenagers are not expected to drive 18-wheelers for 12 hours a day.
- selimthegrim 3y ago
  My dad drove coal trucks from Cleveland to Toledo at 16 in the 70s so yes, some are. Was it fully legal? I doubt it.
  - imgabe 3y ago
    If it’s illegal, then it’s not something that’s expected of them.
    - selimthegrim 3y ago
      You live a charmed life.
      - imgabe 3y ago
        I think we're talking past each other. I took "expected" to mean "expected by society in general". Teenagers are generally expected to get regular driver's licenses and learn how to drive a car (although many of them don't even do that anymore). It is not common for people to expect a teenager to have a commercial driver's license and know how to operate an 18-wheeler. Now, is it possible that in the 1970s your dad had an unhinged boss who expected a 16 year old to reliably operate commercial trucks without any training? Is it possible your dad is an exceptional driver who managed to do this? Sure, both of those things are possible. Is it a reasonable thing to expect from any randomly selected teenager? No.
kome 3y ago
> Driving as a profession does not require skill. how can say this with a straight face?
- Symbiote 3y ago
  Didn't everyone play Euro Truck Simulator (or whatever it was), when it went viral as a daft video game of the year? I got stuck going round the first corner, then got lost, then gave up when I had to back the trailer into the loading bay. https://eurotrucksimulator2.com/ https://eurotrucksimulator2.com/
epiccoleman 3y ago
The kind of driving that teenagers are expected to do is wildly different from trucking. The biggest vehicle I've ever driven was a U-Haul and even that requires more focus and care than regular driving. Add another 25 feet of length, a trailer which can rotate independently of the vehicle, and tight timetables into the mix, and you're certainly looking at more skill than the average driver needs.
eropple 3y ago
Forget eighteen-wheelers, which are rolling geometry problems: ever driven a solid-axle flatbed? Come back and tell us that that doesn't "require skill".
- ecf 3y ago
  I learned from a young age how to drive with a trailer, and I have experience with 30ft fifth-wheels.
  - brnt 3y ago
    If it requires no skill, you can do it as well as I (I've never driven either). Wanna bet?
  - kamaal 3y ago
    This reminds me of the time when coding was popular among high schoolers and people were saying coding jobs will be 0 as kids will be building mainframes in days. It turns out its one thing to do a thing for fun or small periods totally a different ball game when you have to do it at scale. Im guessing a lot of people who can play a chord or two like to imagine it can't be that hard to be a concert musician either. Everything changes at scale and when it has to be done seriously.
maxsilver 3y ago
Come back and say this, after you've gotten a CDL Class A
- ecf 3y ago
  My best friend’s brother in law recently paid a CDL mill to get a license. Took him less than a month. Miss me with the demanded respect for an industry that will be replaced in a couple decades.
bdcravens 3y ago
> ....as a profession does not require skill Some might say the same about gluing together boilerplate in modern development frameworks. At the end of the day, skill is only relevant for competition within a given industry. The pay scale for any given field is based on the value they provide the employers (which is why grown men playing children's games are paid millions of dollars)

philomath_mn 3y ago

That isn't how wages are set. It's a combination of supply, demand, and the business value of services rendered. Trucking is a hard job which affects the supply of drivers, but this is offset by the fairly low barrier to entry to trucking.

randomdata 3y ago
> It's a combination of supply, demand, and the business value of services rendered. Just supply and demand. Demand is a function of that business value (among other attributes).
- philomath_mn 3y ago
  Good point!

dewey 3y ago

> Why wouldn’t it be highly paid? There's many jobs that are probably even worse and paid less. The only reason it's highly paid is because the competition for it is higher: "at the time it was because of a “shortage” of truck drivers."

throwaway44773 3y ago
The barrier to entry to driving a truck is a few months of training so the amount of people that can become truck drivers is quite large. However, the social status of driving a truck is quite low and there is a constant threat of automating the job away. Not to mention the terrible working conditions.
- Teever 3y ago
  The barrier to entry for driving a truck is greater than just the time it takes to do the training. To pass the training you need to be a competent driver. It isn't as easy as you make it out to be and the pool of people who can become truck drivers is smaller than you think it is.
  - throwaway44773 3y ago
    Having a driver's license is basically table stakes for having a job in the United States. There are exceptions if you live in dense areas with good public transit, or you can work from home.
    - madars 3y ago
      CDL != regular driver's license. Does an average driver know how to operate air brakes or prevent jack-knifing or what to do with a runaway engine? Trucking is a highly specialized job and requires more aptitude than ordinary driving.
    - vel0city 3y ago
      Loads of people with driver's licenses can barely operate a sedan. Passing a CDL exam and not constantly getting into accidents driving a massive truck is a completely different thing. Loads of drivers fret parallel parking. Imagine the difficulty of moving a 54' trailer perfectly straight into a bay at the bottom of a narrow ramp and not crushing anything in comparison to regular parallel parking.

emptybits 3y ago

Your reasoning is somewhat sound. History has not been so generous. Source: son of a trucker. Also consider that minimal academic education and minimal specialized training is often sufficient to do the work. So the supply of those willing to do the work has often exceeded demand, so there's naturally downward pressure on pay.

manicennui 3y ago

Working at Long John Silvers was also grueling work and I was always covered in grease and received minor burns from time to time. The job can be learned by almost anyone in a couple weeks though. Physical difficulty has almost nothing to do with compensation.

DiggyJohnson 3y ago

I don't mean to sound snarky, but do you actually believe that's how wages are often set, or are you describing an ideal? These sorts of comments confuse me because they seem to be making an argument by explicitly confusing is from ought as an intentional rhetorical technique.

randomdata 3y ago
> do you actually believe that's how wages are often set He'd be wrong if he thought anything else. Obviously supply and demand always determines price. There is no question on that front. The only problem with the previous comment, perhaps, is thinking that this particular gruelling/isolating work leads to fewer people being willing to drive the trucks than actually happens. The reality is the average trucker running typical routes isn't really experiencing anything all that gruelling/isolating in the grand scheme of things, so it is a more attractive career than suggested. It's not a cushy programming job by any stretch, but it's still quite comfortable compared to a lot of work out there. The general premise is valid, though. There are clear examples of other, albeit arguably more, gruelling/isolating work that can't get anyone to even consider the job without big dollar signs. He is just overestimating how undesirable trucking in particular is. For a lot of people, trucking is their ideal career. But, in fairness, the comment was in reply to an article that suggests, at least for some routes, that there is trouble attracting drivers. So it wasn’t exactly off-base. The original article may be.

bdcravens 3y ago

My father was an elementary school janitor and worked harder in a day than I work in a month. However, I make multiples of what he made (even adjusted for inflation, though jobs at the bottom of the pay scale haven't risen like that over the years) All that said, I think the question isn't whether the pay is acceptable, but why Walmart pays so much relative to other companies, where the drivers do pretty much the same job.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]