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Games about killing people are not a problem, as long they are labeled properly (enforcing that, that's another story). Do we have a bigger problem with objecti

by soco 3y ago

Games about killing people are not a problem, as long they are labeled properly (enforcing that, that's another story). Do we have a bigger problem with objectification, than with plain murdering, or with drug dealing? And how's the argument about having sex with prostitutes in GTA? Really all this only confuses me - people are cherry-picking topics to be upset about, while ignoring similar glaring ones right there. I'm not even saying about what one should be upset, just expecting some consistency in it.

therealpygon 3y ago
Cherry-picking is fundamental to most people’s views, sadly, and they always use “we have to draw the line somewhere” as an excuse for why it is valid to ignore similar or even far worse situations. Worse still, they focus their time creating elaborate objections to what are mostly meaningless topics, mostly due to not being able to exercise their control over those much bigger and broad issues. For example, known effects from cigarettes versus theorized effects of e-cigarettes. Same goes for debates on alcohol vs pot, electric car accidents vs ICE vehicles, so on and so forth. It also happens when placing extraordinary value on an individual cherry-picked life or theoretical life, rather than any of the actual lives lost every day to solvable problems. End of the day, it’s all about people trying to control other people’s thoughts and actions by forcing them to conform to the box the debater has created and lined with cherry-picked facts. You can see that in the arguments of this article and in this thread. Just as a note, I’m not advocating one way or another on any topic, just addressing the issue of cherry-picking that happens regardless of which side anyone falls on an issue.
- hanselot 3y ago
  Anecdotally, I would like to mention that my partner has been sick for over a month with some kind of lung shit he got from an e-cigarette (vuse something disposable crap). He has been literally unable to sleep through a night for over a month, multiple doctor visits, 3 courses of antibiotics, lung xray that apparently confirmed it was viral pneumonia, but yeah. I have been smoking for over 6 years and still alive, but he smoked that shit for less than a few weeks and he is barely functional. I can't remember the last time I got a full night's sleep anymore, because I constantly have to apply muscle relaxants and ensure he has proper medication to be able to remain asleep. So yeah, not really the point of your argument, but fuck e-cigarettes, for the rest of time I will have this stance. And yes, I am brutally aware of what cigarettes do as well, but don't knock the "theoretical" effects of e-cigarettes.
  - fluoridation 3y ago
    If it's viral, how can you tell it's from the e-cigarettes and not a direct human-to-human infection?
    - therealpygon 3y ago
      As said, another example of cherry-picking. They smoked a vape, therefore it must be vapes. They got the vaccine, therefore it must be vaccines. Rinse and repeat for whichever argument. What is worse, pointing out these selective facts generally makes people become defensive, so they dive into searching for more cherry-picked arguments as ammunition to prove themselves right, rather than accepting that they might actually be wrong and objectively looking for information. It is the core of the problem of politics on both sides and we can easily see how extreme it can make people regardless of the thing being advocated. Cherry-picking and self-reinforcement go hand-in-hand.
- scarmig 3y ago
  On the topic of cherry picking and vapes, one of the biggest absurdities is that it's now cheaper and more convenient to purchase meth or fent in San Francisco than it is a flavored vape. I can respect people having different levels of libertarian or public health concerns than me, but there's absolutely no consistent pairing of them that should result in vapes being more restricted than fentanyl.
jijijijij 3y ago
In Germany more than half of all murder victims are women. I presume it's not much different in other countries, although gang on gang violence may distort the picture a bit. If you look into research on femicide, you see there is a specific dynamic at work, objectification and feelings of possession in men are causal. These motives are universal, as femicides are otherwise frequently happening across all economic, cultural and social backgrounds.
- almatabata 3y ago
  > I presume it's not much different in other countries, although gang on gang violence may distort the picture a bit. If you count all homicides i would expect women to usually be the minority in most countries due to gang crime as you say. In france its the reverse, 67% of all murder victims are men. The data looks similar in the US. In the french statistics certain crimes affect mostly women and other mostly men. 97% gang related deaths are men while 66% of intra-family deaths are women. Germany: https://www.bka.de/DE/AktuelleInformationen/StatistikenLagebilder/PolizeilicheKriminalstatistik/PKS2020/InteraktiveKarten/03MordTotschlagToetungAufVerlangen/03_MordTotschlagToetungAufVerlangenBundesrespublik.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=2 https://www.bka.de/DE/AktuelleInformationen/StatistikenLageb... France: https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/5763555?sommaire=5763633 https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/5763555?sommaire=576363... US: https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6.xls https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-...
  - jijijijij 3y ago
    Yeah, my "expectation" was meant in regard to non-gang violence, which varies by country a lot. Gang on gang, or inner crime violence is for the most part irrelevant to the argument, as it's not something the general population is involved in, usually. My point is, femicides are a much bigger problem than people realize. Considering the majority of murderers and other criminals are men, I don't think it's wild to presume some form of gender specific motivations in those murders, without getting all academic here. Don't know about you infographic, here is recent stats for Germany: https://www.bka.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Publikationen/PolizeilicheKriminalstatistik/2022/Bund/Opfer/BU-O-01-T91-Opfer_xls.html https://www.bka.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Publikationen/Pol...

by soco 3y ago

therealpygon 3y ago

Cherry-picking is fundamental to most people’s views, sadly, and they always use “we have to draw the line somewhere” as an excuse for why it is valid to ignore similar or even far worse situations. Worse still, they focus their time creating elaborate objections to what are mostly meaningless topics, mostly due to not being able to exercise their control over those much bigger and broad issues. For example, known effects from cigarettes versus theorized effects of e-cigarettes. Same goes for debates on alcohol vs pot, electric car accidents vs ICE vehicles, so on and so forth. It also happens when placing extraordinary value on an individual cherry-picked life or theoretical life, rather than any of the actual lives lost every day to solvable problems. End of the day, it’s all about people trying to control other people’s thoughts and actions by forcing them to conform to the box the debater has created and lined with cherry-picked facts. You can see that in the arguments of this article and in this thread. Just as a note, I’m not advocating one way or another on any topic, just addressing the issue of cherry-picking that happens regardless of which side anyone falls on an issue.

hanselot 3y ago
Anecdotally, I would like to mention that my partner has been sick for over a month with some kind of lung shit he got from an e-cigarette (vuse something disposable crap). He has been literally unable to sleep through a night for over a month, multiple doctor visits, 3 courses of antibiotics, lung xray that apparently confirmed it was viral pneumonia, but yeah. I have been smoking for over 6 years and still alive, but he smoked that shit for less than a few weeks and he is barely functional. I can't remember the last time I got a full night's sleep anymore, because I constantly have to apply muscle relaxants and ensure he has proper medication to be able to remain asleep. So yeah, not really the point of your argument, but fuck e-cigarettes, for the rest of time I will have this stance. And yes, I am brutally aware of what cigarettes do as well, but don't knock the "theoretical" effects of e-cigarettes.
- fluoridation 3y ago
  If it's viral, how can you tell it's from the e-cigarettes and not a direct human-to-human infection?
  - therealpygon 3y ago
    As said, another example of cherry-picking. They smoked a vape, therefore it must be vapes. They got the vaccine, therefore it must be vaccines. Rinse and repeat for whichever argument. What is worse, pointing out these selective facts generally makes people become defensive, so they dive into searching for more cherry-picked arguments as ammunition to prove themselves right, rather than accepting that they might actually be wrong and objectively looking for information. It is the core of the problem of politics on both sides and we can easily see how extreme it can make people regardless of the thing being advocated. Cherry-picking and self-reinforcement go hand-in-hand.
scarmig 3y ago
On the topic of cherry picking and vapes, one of the biggest absurdities is that it's now cheaper and more convenient to purchase meth or fent in San Francisco than it is a flavored vape. I can respect people having different levels of libertarian or public health concerns than me, but there's absolutely no consistent pairing of them that should result in vapes being more restricted than fentanyl.

jijijijij 3y ago

In Germany more than half of all murder victims are women. I presume it's not much different in other countries, although gang on gang violence may distort the picture a bit. If you look into research on femicide, you see there is a specific dynamic at work, objectification and feelings of possession in men are causal. These motives are universal, as femicides are otherwise frequently happening across all economic, cultural and social backgrounds.

almatabata 3y ago
> I presume it's not much different in other countries, although gang on gang violence may distort the picture a bit. If you count all homicides i would expect women to usually be the minority in most countries due to gang crime as you say. In france its the reverse, 67% of all murder victims are men. The data looks similar in the US. In the french statistics certain crimes affect mostly women and other mostly men. 97% gang related deaths are men while 66% of intra-family deaths are women. Germany: https://www.bka.de/DE/AktuelleInformationen/StatistikenLagebilder/PolizeilicheKriminalstatistik/PKS2020/InteraktiveKarten/03MordTotschlagToetungAufVerlangen/03_MordTotschlagToetungAufVerlangenBundesrespublik.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=2 https://www.bka.de/DE/AktuelleInformationen/StatistikenLageb... France: https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/5763555?sommaire=5763633 https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/5763555?sommaire=576363... US: https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6.xls https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-...
- jijijijij 3y ago
  Yeah, my "expectation" was meant in regard to non-gang violence, which varies by country a lot. Gang on gang, or inner crime violence is for the most part irrelevant to the argument, as it's not something the general population is involved in, usually. My point is, femicides are a much bigger problem than people realize. Considering the majority of murderers and other criminals are men, I don't think it's wild to presume some form of gender specific motivations in those murders, without getting all academic here. Don't know about you infographic, here is recent stats for Germany: https://www.bka.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Publikationen/PolizeilicheKriminalstatistik/2022/Bund/Opfer/BU-O-01-T91-Opfer_xls.html https://www.bka.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Publikationen/Pol...