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Several governments have already effectively banned sites like Pornhub by creating regimes where people have to mail their ID to a central clearinghouse (which

Several governments have already effectively banned sites like Pornhub by creating regimes where people have to mail their ID to a central clearinghouse (which creates a huge chilling effect.) The article talks about “reasonable age verification measures” and so saying it’s unenforceable seems a little bit premature. Also, you can bet those measures won’t be in any way reasonable once the Florida legislature gets through with them.

rschneid 3y ago
>effectively banned In my opinion, these governments haven't implemented 'effective' bans (though maybe chilling, as you say) but primarily created awkward new grey markets for the personal data that these policies rely on for theatrics. Remember when China 'banned' youth IDs from playing online games past 10PM? I think a bunch of grandparents became gamers around the same time... https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-023-01669-8 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-023-01669-8
- seanw444 3y ago
  Which is exactly what happens for markets that are desirable enough. We compare bans of things not enough people care about, to bans of things that people are willing to do crazy things for. They don't yield the same results.
  - monkeynotes 3y ago
    No policy is 100% effective. Kids still get into alcohol, but the policy is sound.
- rft 3y ago
  Another example is some Korean games requiring essentially a Korean ID to play. A few years ago there was a game my guild was hyped about and we played the Korean version a bit. You more or less bought the identity of some Korean guy via a service that was explicitly setup for this. Worked surprisingly well and was pretty streamlined.
- angra_mainyu 3y ago
  At least from personal experience, when there was a period where my ISP in the UK started requiring ID verification for porn, I literally ceased to watch it. Making something difficult to do actually works to _curb_ behavior.
55555 3y ago
You're proving the argument that the parent set forth. Anyone who wants to visit Pornhub can just visit one of the many sites that isn't abiding by the new law. However, that's not due to a lack of legislation, but rather a lack of enforcement, or, perhaps, enforceability. If laws always worked I'd be for more of them. My argument is not that we should never make laws because it's futile but rather that some laws are more futile than others and having laws go unenforced weakens government and enforcing them inequitably is injust.
- monkeynotes 3y ago
  Also social policy enforcement is a generational thing. The UK is only just getting toward outright banning cigarettes by making it illegal for anyone born after X date from ever buying them. Eventually you have a whole generation that isn't exposed to smoking and on the whole thinks the habit is disgusting, which it is.
  - verall 3y ago
    Except that some people born after that date will still acquire them, get addicted, and then what? Prosecute them like drug possession? It's infantilizing and dumb. Grown adults should be allowed to smoke tobacco if they so wish and smoking rates are already way down due to marketing and alternatives. Noone needs to be prosecuted.
    - zhivota 3y ago
      You don't need to prosecute any buyers at all though. All you need to do is make it illegal to sell in shops, and illegal to import. There will be a black market, sure, but how many people are going to go through the trouble and expense to source black market tobacco? Not that many. And everyone benefits because universal healthcare means everyone shares the cost of the health effects that are avoided.
      - monkeynotes 3y ago
        Should mention the govt. has to find budget to fill the gap of tobacco budget, but they've been slowly doing this as demand has slumped since 2008.
AlwaysRock 3y ago
Does this actually work or does it just push those same people to sketchier websites?
- angra_mainyu 3y ago
  Worked in my case when my ISP required ID for it in the UK. I just noped out of it entirely.
__turbobrew__ 3y ago
My main issue is that the only effective way to ban access to a website is to also ban VPNs and any sort of network tunneling. A great firewall would have to be constructed which I am very much against. Even China’s firewall is surpassable and it is questionable how much it is worth operating given the massive costs which would be incurred. I think the government should invest in giving parents the tools to control their child’s online access. Tools such as DNS blocklists, open source traffic filtering software which parents could set up in their home, etc.

rschneid 3y ago

>effectively banned In my opinion, these governments haven't implemented 'effective' bans (though maybe chilling, as you say) but primarily created awkward new grey markets for the personal data that these policies rely on for theatrics. Remember when China 'banned' youth IDs from playing online games past 10PM? I think a bunch of grandparents became gamers around the same time... https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-023-01669-8 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-023-01669-8

seanw444 3y ago
Which is exactly what happens for markets that are desirable enough. We compare bans of things not enough people care about, to bans of things that people are willing to do crazy things for. They don't yield the same results.
- monkeynotes 3y ago
  No policy is 100% effective. Kids still get into alcohol, but the policy is sound.
rft 3y ago
Another example is some Korean games requiring essentially a Korean ID to play. A few years ago there was a game my guild was hyped about and we played the Korean version a bit. You more or less bought the identity of some Korean guy via a service that was explicitly setup for this. Worked surprisingly well and was pretty streamlined.
angra_mainyu 3y ago
At least from personal experience, when there was a period where my ISP in the UK started requiring ID verification for porn, I literally ceased to watch it. Making something difficult to do actually works to _curb_ behavior.

55555 3y ago

You're proving the argument that the parent set forth. Anyone who wants to visit Pornhub can just visit one of the many sites that isn't abiding by the new law. However, that's not due to a lack of legislation, but rather a lack of enforcement, or, perhaps, enforceability. If laws always worked I'd be for more of them. My argument is not that we should never make laws because it's futile but rather that some laws are more futile than others and having laws go unenforced weakens government and enforcing them inequitably is injust.

monkeynotes 3y ago
Also social policy enforcement is a generational thing. The UK is only just getting toward outright banning cigarettes by making it illegal for anyone born after X date from ever buying them. Eventually you have a whole generation that isn't exposed to smoking and on the whole thinks the habit is disgusting, which it is.
- verall 3y ago
  Except that some people born after that date will still acquire them, get addicted, and then what? Prosecute them like drug possession? It's infantilizing and dumb. Grown adults should be allowed to smoke tobacco if they so wish and smoking rates are already way down due to marketing and alternatives. Noone needs to be prosecuted.
  - zhivota 3y ago
    You don't need to prosecute any buyers at all though. All you need to do is make it illegal to sell in shops, and illegal to import. There will be a black market, sure, but how many people are going to go through the trouble and expense to source black market tobacco? Not that many. And everyone benefits because universal healthcare means everyone shares the cost of the health effects that are avoided.
    - monkeynotes 3y ago
      Should mention the govt. has to find budget to fill the gap of tobacco budget, but they've been slowly doing this as demand has slumped since 2008.

AlwaysRock 3y ago

Does this actually work or does it just push those same people to sketchier websites?

angra_mainyu 3y ago
Worked in my case when my ISP required ID for it in the UK. I just noped out of it entirely.

__turbobrew__ 3y ago

My main issue is that the only effective way to ban access to a website is to also ban VPNs and any sort of network tunneling. A great firewall would have to be constructed which I am very much against. Even China’s firewall is surpassable and it is questionable how much it is worth operating given the massive costs which would be incurred. I think the government should invest in giving parents the tools to control their child’s online access. Tools such as DNS blocklists, open source traffic filtering software which parents could set up in their home, etc.