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How about all the historical fiction of Science or Atheism vs Christianity? Pointing out that atheism and scientism are making up and embellishing their own hi

How about all the historical fiction of Science or Atheism vs Christianity? Pointing out that atheism and scientism are making up and embellishing their own history is more of a controversial take in these circles.

quesera 3y ago
What is the historical fiction of Atheism?
- trelane 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - quesera 3y ago
    Ah. You've got me all wrong. And my error was in propagating your capital-A "Atheism". The sins committed against groups of humans in the name of any belief system are not the topic I was asking about. They're all terrible. Choose your idol or lack thereof. And FWIW I think that's generally not a product of the system, it's a product of people and power and resource contention. But I was asking about the historical fiction of atheism. Lots of people live without a Christian or other god, with no particular concern for how others believe or any need for a mythology to support or define their views.
    - trelane 3y ago
      > You've got me all wrong. This is ironic, surely, given your response? > The sins committed against groups of humans in the name of any belief system are not the topic I was asking about. They're all terrible. Choose your idol or lack thereof. This is a Dodge. > Lots of people live without a Christian or other god, with no particular concern for how others believe or any need for a mythology to support or define their views. So you believe this is unique to atheists? Even ignoring the obvious "mythology" which rightfully can extend to common atheistic beliefs.
      - quesera 3y ago
        When I use the word "mythology", I mean it to apply to any set of correlated beliefs. All religions have their mythologies, yes. But so do cultures and nations and corporations and universities and friend groups. I think I see your agenda here though. Atheists have done terrible things. Adolf, Joseph, Pol. If you choose these folks as representatives of atheism (or, of what happens when you don't have a supreme accountability) then sure. They constructed a non-Christian(etc) mythology that was not competitive with their own supremacy, and did bad things with the power derived. I think we agree here. But I don't view "atheism" as an organization or a correlated set of beliefs. You can choose to argue about "Atheism" and disagree. But we're talking about different things. See also "[Dd]emocratic", "[Ll]iberal", "[Ll]ibertarian", etc.
        trelane 3y ago
        > I think I see your agenda here though. My agenda is to make you (and those reading the thread) consider your own movement critically, instead of perpetuating your own mythology. > Atheists have done terrible things. Adolf, Joseph, Pol. If you choose these folks as representatives of atheism (or, of what happens when you don't have a supreme accountability) then sure. They constructed a non-Christian(etc) mythology that was not competitive with their own supremacy, and did bad things with the power derived. I think we agree here. So, by that logic, Christianity cannot be blamed for the inquisition and atrocities committed during the crusades, since it's on those in command of those movements (the Pope) and not based on christianity itself. > But I don't view "atheism" as an organization or a correlated set of beliefs. That strikes me as deliberately obtuse. > You can choose to argue about "Atheism" and disagree. But we're talking about different things. Again, you're not being intellectually honest here. You're defining terms so that you don't have to admit that atheism (and sects thereof) have their own mythologies and revisionist histories. Your efforts above to extricate atheism from the atrocities committed by sects of atheism, even those committed those to convert the heretics, rather highlight that fact.
        quesera 3y ago
        You have me all wrong. I am a part of no movement. I have never once been in a group of people (more than two) where the discussion was about religion and where agreement (with me) was had. It's just not a part of my life. I do not think there is a mythology around atheism. This was my question to you, effectively. Atheism is literally the lack of belief in a god. Yes there are people who have constructed belief systems around that lack of belief, but those are not necessary to meet the definition. There is no complex set of beliefs necessary to be an atheist. Just one lack of belief. Anything on top of that is something other than atheism. There are no sects of atheism. But maybe of Atheism-as-you-understand-it. You claim I'm being intellectually dishonest here, but I maintain that we are talking about different things. I'm still curious about the "historical fiction" of any version of (your) "Atheism", but I don't think I'm going to get a conversation about that at this point. If you're talking about the mythologies created by our friends Adolf, Joseph, and Pol -- then you are really stretching. They used anti-religionism (which is not atheism) as a vehicle for their own crazy/evil. I also do not blame Christianity for the Inquisition, although I do blame (bad) Christians for it! It seems that you feel attacked in your beliefs by a vocal minority of atheists. That sucks, absolutely. But militant Theists have far more power in this world than militant atheists. The latter are just rabble-rousers. I am fully aware that tolerant Christians exist. But as intolerants go, the atheists have nothing on the Christians. At least not in terms of numbers or influence. I wish we could ignore the militant Christians as easily as we can ignore the militant atheists.
  - quesera 3y ago
    > In general, I'll turn it around. Atheism is a group of people like any other. Do you believe that atheists alone are able to withstand the human inclination to favor their in group and hate their out groups? This is the difference. I don't view "atheists" as a group of people with in and out groups. Any more than "pasta eaters" or "brown-eyed people". But some atheists (I would call them "militant atheists") do. Of course I'd argue that militant atheists are largely reacting to the militant theism of others, which is more popularly accepted and gets way more air time (and also is responsible for horrible things in the world). But both are silly.
    - trelane 3y ago
      > But some atheists (I would call them "militant atheists") do. Of course I'd argue that militant atheists are largely reacting to the militant theism of others, which is more popularly accepted and gets way more air time (and also is responsible for horrible things in the world). But both are silly. Do you believe this is not true of other religions as well?
      - quesera 3y ago
        I mean, sure. I think that's what I said. But if we started rapturing all the militant religionists today, we'd lose a lot more Christians than atheists. I'm completely in favor of rapturing the militants of all stripes.
  - PsylentKnight 3y ago
    > For one, science and Christianity are not the enemies many on the Left seem to believe. Christianity isn't a monolith, so it depends on which flavor of Christianity we're talking about. If we're talking about fundamentalists that interpret the Bible literally (this is a large and politically influential group in the US), then yes, science and those beliefs are incompatible.
  - itishappy 3y ago
    > Feel free to research some. I tried! My search came up with *The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" topping the list which, while an amazing book, doesn't feel like what you had in mind... What did you have in mind?

quesera 3y ago

What is the historical fiction of Atheism?

trelane 3y ago
[flagged]
- quesera 3y ago
  Ah. You've got me all wrong. And my error was in propagating your capital-A "Atheism". The sins committed against groups of humans in the name of any belief system are not the topic I was asking about. They're all terrible. Choose your idol or lack thereof. And FWIW I think that's generally not a product of the system, it's a product of people and power and resource contention. But I was asking about the historical fiction of atheism. Lots of people live without a Christian or other god, with no particular concern for how others believe or any need for a mythology to support or define their views.
  - trelane 3y ago
    > You've got me all wrong. This is ironic, surely, given your response? > The sins committed against groups of humans in the name of any belief system are not the topic I was asking about. They're all terrible. Choose your idol or lack thereof. This is a Dodge. > Lots of people live without a Christian or other god, with no particular concern for how others believe or any need for a mythology to support or define their views. So you believe this is unique to atheists? Even ignoring the obvious "mythology" which rightfully can extend to common atheistic beliefs.
    - quesera 3y ago
      When I use the word "mythology", I mean it to apply to any set of correlated beliefs. All religions have their mythologies, yes. But so do cultures and nations and corporations and universities and friend groups. I think I see your agenda here though. Atheists have done terrible things. Adolf, Joseph, Pol. If you choose these folks as representatives of atheism (or, of what happens when you don't have a supreme accountability) then sure. They constructed a non-Christian(etc) mythology that was not competitive with their own supremacy, and did bad things with the power derived. I think we agree here. But I don't view "atheism" as an organization or a correlated set of beliefs. You can choose to argue about "Atheism" and disagree. But we're talking about different things. See also "[Dd]emocratic", "[Ll]iberal", "[Ll]ibertarian", etc.
      - trelane 3y ago
        > I think I see your agenda here though. My agenda is to make you (and those reading the thread) consider your own movement critically, instead of perpetuating your own mythology. > Atheists have done terrible things. Adolf, Joseph, Pol. If you choose these folks as representatives of atheism (or, of what happens when you don't have a supreme accountability) then sure. They constructed a non-Christian(etc) mythology that was not competitive with their own supremacy, and did bad things with the power derived. I think we agree here. So, by that logic, Christianity cannot be blamed for the inquisition and atrocities committed during the crusades, since it's on those in command of those movements (the Pope) and not based on christianity itself. > But I don't view "atheism" as an organization or a correlated set of beliefs. That strikes me as deliberately obtuse. > You can choose to argue about "Atheism" and disagree. But we're talking about different things. Again, you're not being intellectually honest here. You're defining terms so that you don't have to admit that atheism (and sects thereof) have their own mythologies and revisionist histories. Your efforts above to extricate atheism from the atrocities committed by sects of atheism, even those committed those to convert the heretics, rather highlight that fact.
        quesera 3y ago
        You have me all wrong. I am a part of no movement. I have never once been in a group of people (more than two) where the discussion was about religion and where agreement (with me) was had. It's just not a part of my life. I do not think there is a mythology around atheism. This was my question to you, effectively. Atheism is literally the lack of belief in a god. Yes there are people who have constructed belief systems around that lack of belief, but those are not necessary to meet the definition. There is no complex set of beliefs necessary to be an atheist. Just one lack of belief. Anything on top of that is something other than atheism. There are no sects of atheism. But maybe of Atheism-as-you-understand-it. You claim I'm being intellectually dishonest here, but I maintain that we are talking about different things. I'm still curious about the "historical fiction" of any version of (your) "Atheism", but I don't think I'm going to get a conversation about that at this point. If you're talking about the mythologies created by our friends Adolf, Joseph, and Pol -- then you are really stretching. They used anti-religionism (which is not atheism) as a vehicle for their own crazy/evil. I also do not blame Christianity for the Inquisition, although I do blame (bad) Christians for it! It seems that you feel attacked in your beliefs by a vocal minority of atheists. That sucks, absolutely. But militant Theists have far more power in this world than militant atheists. The latter are just rabble-rousers. I am fully aware that tolerant Christians exist. But as intolerants go, the atheists have nothing on the Christians. At least not in terms of numbers or influence. I wish we could ignore the militant Christians as easily as we can ignore the militant atheists.
- quesera 3y ago
  > In general, I'll turn it around. Atheism is a group of people like any other. Do you believe that atheists alone are able to withstand the human inclination to favor their in group and hate their out groups? This is the difference. I don't view "atheists" as a group of people with in and out groups. Any more than "pasta eaters" or "brown-eyed people". But some atheists (I would call them "militant atheists") do. Of course I'd argue that militant atheists are largely reacting to the militant theism of others, which is more popularly accepted and gets way more air time (and also is responsible for horrible things in the world). But both are silly.
  - trelane 3y ago
    > But some atheists (I would call them "militant atheists") do. Of course I'd argue that militant atheists are largely reacting to the militant theism of others, which is more popularly accepted and gets way more air time (and also is responsible for horrible things in the world). But both are silly. Do you believe this is not true of other religions as well?
    - quesera 3y ago
      I mean, sure. I think that's what I said. But if we started rapturing all the militant religionists today, we'd lose a lot more Christians than atheists. I'm completely in favor of rapturing the militants of all stripes.
- PsylentKnight 3y ago
  > For one, science and Christianity are not the enemies many on the Left seem to believe. Christianity isn't a monolith, so it depends on which flavor of Christianity we're talking about. If we're talking about fundamentalists that interpret the Bible literally (this is a large and politically influential group in the US), then yes, science and those beliefs are incompatible.
- itishappy 3y ago
  > Feel free to research some. I tried! My search came up with *The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" topping the list which, while an amazing book, doesn't feel like what you had in mind... What did you have in mind?