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True. I think as soon as you type a message in to your iPhone you have no way of really knowing either. I don’t trust Apple at all, naturally, but I possibly l

True. I think as soon as you type a message in to your iPhone you have no way of really knowing either. I don’t trust Apple at all, naturally, but I possibly like them a bit more than I like Google. Apple will likely try to violate our personal data and messages at some point if they see Google getting away with it. That’s how it works. One chip at a time. They might even be compelled to do it by law with a gag order.

nerdjon 3y ago
While I don't really know, I have more confidence in it with an iPhone user particularly if we are using iMessage thanks to E2E. However the contacts issue is a problem on iOS as well and I think it would be somewhat trivial for Apple to address that for any contacts that are associated with an iPhone user. Make it so the user can allow apps on someone else's phone to get their information (I am not implying this is easy, but some of the parts to facilitate this may already be there). However it is also important to look at that Apple has been pushing the other way and working on implementations to make complying with those orders impossible. While currently iPhone backups are a major problem right now there have been multiple reports that they are working on E2E encryption of their entire iCloud system. So at the moment I have far more trust in them considering their entire business model isn't built on gathering up as much information as possible.
- palata 3y ago
  > I have more confidence in it with an iPhone user particularly if we are using iMessage thanks to E2E. That's really just an impression. First, you can use E2EE with other apps (e.g. Signal). But mostly, E2EE only secures the messages between the two devices, NOT on the devices. Apple, just like Google, basically owns your device. Whatever you can read on your screen, they can technically access, too. Ever heard of Pegasus? Third parties can access smartphones with exploits like this, meaning that they just go around all the E2EE you can have.
  - nerdjon 3y ago
    We are talking about very different things here. There is a massive difference between exploits, gag orders, etc and normal day to day operations like what Google and Facebook are doing here. I am not saying apple is saints, in my first line I very clearly said "companies" which includes Apple. But let's not pretend that Google and Facebook have not made Privacy invasion part of their business model and removed the ability for me to consent to my data being consumed by them regardless of how much effort I make to remove both from my life.
    - palata 3y ago
      > But let's not pretend that Google and Facebook have not made Privacy invasion part of their business model and removed the ability for me to consent to my data being consumed by them regardless of how much effort I make to remove both from my life. I don't. I also don't pretend that Apple is better, though it seems to me that you do :-). > normal day to day operations like what Google and Facebook are doing here. I don't think that Google or Facebook extracting everything that appears on your screen (including e.g. Signal messages) to their servers would count as "normal day to day operations", though. I would guess that it would even be illegal. However they can probably do stuff with the data that you send to their servers unencrypted (iCloud too), which is where E2EE is interesting. But then again, using Signal with a recipient on Android or iMessage with iOS won't make a big difference, I would say.
- WhackyIdeas 3y ago
  Their business model could change at any time though and it’s kind of difficult forgetting their links to NSA’s Prism or strange incidents like the iPhone malware that recently targeted Kasperky employees using secret API’s that were only known to Apple. I trust then more, our house is full of Apple gear - but I still can’t trust them. Re: Google. They weren’t always monsters, there was a time when they were positively viewed upon on the web pre-2006.
  - nerdjon 3y ago
    I don't completely trust them and I don't think I am claiming otherwise, but it is more than Google. My key problem here is consent. I chose to use Apple, I theoretically can choose not to use Google but that doesn't mean anything since they will get my data anyways, at least some of it. And agreed on Google, I used gmail, reader, and basically any experiment they came out with. For me it was somewhere around 2008 from what I can tell that I started moving away from them.

nerdjon 3y ago

While I don't really know, I have more confidence in it with an iPhone user particularly if we are using iMessage thanks to E2E. However the contacts issue is a problem on iOS as well and I think it would be somewhat trivial for Apple to address that for any contacts that are associated with an iPhone user. Make it so the user can allow apps on someone else's phone to get their information (I am not implying this is easy, but some of the parts to facilitate this may already be there). However it is also important to look at that Apple has been pushing the other way and working on implementations to make complying with those orders impossible. While currently iPhone backups are a major problem right now there have been multiple reports that they are working on E2E encryption of their entire iCloud system. So at the moment I have far more trust in them considering their entire business model isn't built on gathering up as much information as possible.

palata 3y ago
> I have more confidence in it with an iPhone user particularly if we are using iMessage thanks to E2E. That's really just an impression. First, you can use E2EE with other apps (e.g. Signal). But mostly, E2EE only secures the messages between the two devices, NOT on the devices. Apple, just like Google, basically owns your device. Whatever you can read on your screen, they can technically access, too. Ever heard of Pegasus? Third parties can access smartphones with exploits like this, meaning that they just go around all the E2EE you can have.
- nerdjon 3y ago
  We are talking about very different things here. There is a massive difference between exploits, gag orders, etc and normal day to day operations like what Google and Facebook are doing here. I am not saying apple is saints, in my first line I very clearly said "companies" which includes Apple. But let's not pretend that Google and Facebook have not made Privacy invasion part of their business model and removed the ability for me to consent to my data being consumed by them regardless of how much effort I make to remove both from my life.
  - palata 3y ago
    > But let's not pretend that Google and Facebook have not made Privacy invasion part of their business model and removed the ability for me to consent to my data being consumed by them regardless of how much effort I make to remove both from my life. I don't. I also don't pretend that Apple is better, though it seems to me that you do :-). > normal day to day operations like what Google and Facebook are doing here. I don't think that Google or Facebook extracting everything that appears on your screen (including e.g. Signal messages) to their servers would count as "normal day to day operations", though. I would guess that it would even be illegal. However they can probably do stuff with the data that you send to their servers unencrypted (iCloud too), which is where E2EE is interesting. But then again, using Signal with a recipient on Android or iMessage with iOS won't make a big difference, I would say.
WhackyIdeas 3y ago
Their business model could change at any time though and it’s kind of difficult forgetting their links to NSA’s Prism or strange incidents like the iPhone malware that recently targeted Kasperky employees using secret API’s that were only known to Apple. I trust then more, our house is full of Apple gear - but I still can’t trust them. Re: Google. They weren’t always monsters, there was a time when they were positively viewed upon on the web pre-2006.
- nerdjon 3y ago
  I don't completely trust them and I don't think I am claiming otherwise, but it is more than Google. My key problem here is consent. I chose to use Apple, I theoretically can choose not to use Google but that doesn't mean anything since they will get my data anyways, at least some of it. And agreed on Google, I used gmail, reader, and basically any experiment they came out with. For me it was somewhere around 2008 from what I can tell that I started moving away from them.