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We desperately need a way for the people you communicate with to be able to OPT IN (not out, out should be default) of companies looking at your communications.

We desperately need a way for the people you communicate with to be able to OPT IN (not out, out should be default) of companies looking at your communications. As an iPhone user who has removed Google as much as possible out of my life, I have basically zero control over what happens with my messages when I send it to people on Android. Same with email, my contact information (particularly if they just allow any app to get their contacts), etc. Put simply we are beyond the point that just because information is on your phone that it means all of it is "your" information and you alone can consent to it. Particularly if it's sensitive texts, photos, whatever. But it shouldn't matter how sensitive it is.

WhackyIdeas 3y ago
True. I think as soon as you type a message in to your iPhone you have no way of really knowing either. I don’t trust Apple at all, naturally, but I possibly like them a bit more than I like Google. Apple will likely try to violate our personal data and messages at some point if they see Google getting away with it. That’s how it works. One chip at a time. They might even be compelled to do it by law with a gag order.
- nerdjon 3y ago
  While I don't really know, I have more confidence in it with an iPhone user particularly if we are using iMessage thanks to E2E. However the contacts issue is a problem on iOS as well and I think it would be somewhat trivial for Apple to address that for any contacts that are associated with an iPhone user. Make it so the user can allow apps on someone else's phone to get their information (I am not implying this is easy, but some of the parts to facilitate this may already be there). However it is also important to look at that Apple has been pushing the other way and working on implementations to make complying with those orders impossible. While currently iPhone backups are a major problem right now there have been multiple reports that they are working on E2E encryption of their entire iCloud system. So at the moment I have far more trust in them considering their entire business model isn't built on gathering up as much information as possible.
  - palata 3y ago
    > I have more confidence in it with an iPhone user particularly if we are using iMessage thanks to E2E. That's really just an impression. First, you can use E2EE with other apps (e.g. Signal). But mostly, E2EE only secures the messages between the two devices, NOT on the devices. Apple, just like Google, basically owns your device. Whatever you can read on your screen, they can technically access, too. Ever heard of Pegasus? Third parties can access smartphones with exploits like this, meaning that they just go around all the E2EE you can have.
    - nerdjon 3y ago
      We are talking about very different things here. There is a massive difference between exploits, gag orders, etc and normal day to day operations like what Google and Facebook are doing here. I am not saying apple is saints, in my first line I very clearly said "companies" which includes Apple. But let's not pretend that Google and Facebook have not made Privacy invasion part of their business model and removed the ability for me to consent to my data being consumed by them regardless of how much effort I make to remove both from my life.
      - palata 3y ago
        > But let's not pretend that Google and Facebook have not made Privacy invasion part of their business model and removed the ability for me to consent to my data being consumed by them regardless of how much effort I make to remove both from my life. I don't. I also don't pretend that Apple is better, though it seems to me that you do :-). > normal day to day operations like what Google and Facebook are doing here. I don't think that Google or Facebook extracting everything that appears on your screen (including e.g. Signal messages) to their servers would count as "normal day to day operations", though. I would guess that it would even be illegal. However they can probably do stuff with the data that you send to their servers unencrypted (iCloud too), which is where E2EE is interesting. But then again, using Signal with a recipient on Android or iMessage with iOS won't make a big difference, I would say.
  - WhackyIdeas 3y ago

WhackyIdeas 3y ago

True. I think as soon as you type a message in to your iPhone you have no way of really knowing either. I don’t trust Apple at all, naturally, but I possibly like them a bit more than I like Google. Apple will likely try to violate our personal data and messages at some point if they see Google getting away with it. That’s how it works. One chip at a time. They might even be compelled to do it by law with a gag order.

nerdjon 3y ago
While I don't really know, I have more confidence in it with an iPhone user particularly if we are using iMessage thanks to E2E. However the contacts issue is a problem on iOS as well and I think it would be somewhat trivial for Apple to address that for any contacts that are associated with an iPhone user. Make it so the user can allow apps on someone else's phone to get their information (I am not implying this is easy, but some of the parts to facilitate this may already be there). However it is also important to look at that Apple has been pushing the other way and working on implementations to make complying with those orders impossible. While currently iPhone backups are a major problem right now there have been multiple reports that they are working on E2E encryption of their entire iCloud system. So at the moment I have far more trust in them considering their entire business model isn't built on gathering up as much information as possible.
- palata 3y ago
  > I have more confidence in it with an iPhone user particularly if we are using iMessage thanks to E2E. That's really just an impression. First, you can use E2EE with other apps (e.g. Signal). But mostly, E2EE only secures the messages between the two devices, NOT on the devices. Apple, just like Google, basically owns your device. Whatever you can read on your screen, they can technically access, too. Ever heard of Pegasus? Third parties can access smartphones with exploits like this, meaning that they just go around all the E2EE you can have.
  - nerdjon 3y ago
    We are talking about very different things here. There is a massive difference between exploits, gag orders, etc and normal day to day operations like what Google and Facebook are doing here. I am not saying apple is saints, in my first line I very clearly said "companies" which includes Apple. But let's not pretend that Google and Facebook have not made Privacy invasion part of their business model and removed the ability for me to consent to my data being consumed by them regardless of how much effort I make to remove both from my life.
    - palata 3y ago
      > But let's not pretend that Google and Facebook have not made Privacy invasion part of their business model and removed the ability for me to consent to my data being consumed by them regardless of how much effort I make to remove both from my life. I don't. I also don't pretend that Apple is better, though it seems to me that you do :-). > normal day to day operations like what Google and Facebook are doing here. I don't think that Google or Facebook extracting everything that appears on your screen (including e.g. Signal messages) to their servers would count as "normal day to day operations", though. I would guess that it would even be illegal. However they can probably do stuff with the data that you send to their servers unencrypted (iCloud too), which is where E2EE is interesting. But then again, using Signal with a recipient on Android or iMessage with iOS won't make a big difference, I would say.
- WhackyIdeas 3y ago