10 ms·

At least the devs can find some motivation in the fact that they'll get comments like these every time they do something good...

by Vinnl 3y ago

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
Thank you for moving the goalposts for the chance of a cheap shot comment, but you know very well that's not what I meant. GTK doing something right , doesn't suddenly absolve it of all the wrongs. And just because something is FOSS doesn't mean it's not without fault and therefore without criticism.
- SiempreViernes 3y ago
  Likewise, just because you are right in principle doesn't mean your actual comment is anything but rude and pointless.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    Am I the one being rude? Maybe. Was GTK also being rude for claiming something everyone else was doing at the time, like fractional scaling, as being "Impossible"? Maybe. Sorry, maybe I was rude, but someone needs to call out BS claims like this as they probably have enough "yes men" tooting their horn.
    - tristan957 3y ago
      Please cite where a GTK developer said that fractional scaling was impossible.
    - Vinnl 3y ago
      > someone needs to call out BS claims like this as they probably have enough "yes men" tooting their horn. Do they, though? Does it have any effect at all, other than potentially demotivating volunteer contributors? And if so, do those effects outweigh the negative effects?
      - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        Gnome's problems are not those volunteers contributing code, but the leadership who decided what gets merged to mainline. Devs could have implemented thumbnails in file picker over a decade ago, but Gnome leadership was always against it. Toxic and poor leadershipof such large projects should be openly criticized and pointed at, and not allow to hide and be gaslighten behind the "poor small volunteer devs".
        tuna74 3y ago
        "Devs could have implemented thumbnails in file picker over a decade ago, but Gnome leadership was always against it." Please stop this bullshit.
        Vinnl 3y ago
        What have years and years of criticising and pointing-at brought us, other than a couple of burnt-out devs? And is there anywhere where we can see that this elite leadership suddenly changed their minds on allowing this, rather than a developer seeing an opportunity when a bunch of things got deprecated, which had been postponed for a long time because it creates a lot of work for downstreams [0]? Or is the fact that they didn't want to haphazardly break those downstreams the poor leadership you speak of? [0] https://blog.gtk.org/2022/12/15/a-grid-for-the-file-chooser/ https://blog.gtk.org/2022/12/15/a-grid-for-the-file-chooser/
EasyMark 3y ago
Usually it's from someone who has never wrote a single line of code to improve the situation either.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  Please spare us of this tired trope. People who don't contribute to FOSS, are also allowed to have an opinion on FOSS if they're users of it. Otherwise how would they know what to improve if you don't allow feedback from users? What you're saying is like car companies thinking their customers' opinions are irelevant because their customers never contributed to designing parts of a car. If you're designing a mainstream product that's not just targeting professional SW developers who can contribute back with code, but also average users who will only use it but never contribute, then you will need to be open to mainstream levels of feedback that represent the average user and not just programmers. Otherwise let's keep complaining Linux and FOSS alternatives have only ~2% market share that it's somehow the users' fault for only buying Microsoft/Apple and not the projects' for being stubborn to feedback and out of touch with their mainstream users.
  - EasyMark 3y ago
    I have contributed and improved more than a few FOSS pieces of software that I used when I thought it could use improvement or a bug fix, or even just documentation of the bug. FOSS isn't a company, and a huge portion of contributors aren't paid a dime. It bothers me when people criticize with vehemence against the developers, where I express my opinion is on the nature of belligerent complaints vs helpful ones. Have a nice day.
    - Klonoar 3y ago
      No, they're right. It's not a requirement to sling code to put your opinions out there about open source.
      - bee_rider 3y ago
        Everyone has their opinions. There are so many opinions out there, it isn’t really clear what to do with them. Put them out there, fine, now everybody else just has to decide if they care. One way to tell if you should care about an opinion is to check and see if the person professing it has taken any concrete actions toward getting the world to align with it.
kuschku 3y ago
The devs who actually implemented should be celebrated. But they're not the same people as the ones that blocked specs and PRs by stating this was "impossible". Blocking valuable improvements with an absolute statement like that makes contributing to such projects feel like fighting against windmills.
- Vinnl 3y ago
  Possibly, but it wouldn't be the first time that the first category of devs feel like they're the target of such comments. And it's a well-known phenomenon that negative comments outweigh ten positive ones. So from where I sit, one might as well not make them. (And I'm pushing back a bit to hopefully support the contributors who I'm grateful to.)

At least the devs can find some motivation in the fact that they'll get comments like these every time they do something good...

by Vinnl 3y ago

At least the devs can find some motivation in the fact that they'll get comments like these every time they do something good...

FirmwareBurner 3y ago

Thank you for moving the goalposts for the chance of a cheap shot comment, but you know very well that's not what I meant. GTK doing something right , doesn't suddenly absolve it of all the wrongs. And just because something is FOSS doesn't mean it's not without fault and therefore without criticism.

SiempreViernes 3y ago
Likewise, just because you are right in principle doesn't mean your actual comment is anything but rude and pointless.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  Am I the one being rude? Maybe. Was GTK also being rude for claiming something everyone else was doing at the time, like fractional scaling, as being "Impossible"? Maybe. Sorry, maybe I was rude, but someone needs to call out BS claims like this as they probably have enough "yes men" tooting their horn.
  - tristan957 3y ago
    Please cite where a GTK developer said that fractional scaling was impossible.
  - Vinnl 3y ago
    > someone needs to call out BS claims like this as they probably have enough "yes men" tooting their horn. Do they, though? Does it have any effect at all, other than potentially demotivating volunteer contributors? And if so, do those effects outweigh the negative effects?
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      Gnome's problems are not those volunteers contributing code, but the leadership who decided what gets merged to mainline. Devs could have implemented thumbnails in file picker over a decade ago, but Gnome leadership was always against it. Toxic and poor leadershipof such large projects should be openly criticized and pointed at, and not allow to hide and be gaslighten behind the "poor small volunteer devs".
      - tuna74 3y ago
        "Devs could have implemented thumbnails in file picker over a decade ago, but Gnome leadership was always against it." Please stop this bullshit.
      - Vinnl 3y ago
        What have years and years of criticising and pointing-at brought us, other than a couple of burnt-out devs? And is there anywhere where we can see that this elite leadership suddenly changed their minds on allowing this, rather than a developer seeing an opportunity when a bunch of things got deprecated, which had been postponed for a long time because it creates a lot of work for downstreams [0]? Or is the fact that they didn't want to haphazardly break those downstreams the poor leadership you speak of? [0] https://blog.gtk.org/2022/12/15/a-grid-for-the-file-chooser/ https://blog.gtk.org/2022/12/15/a-grid-for-the-file-chooser/

EasyMark 3y ago

Usually it's from someone who has never wrote a single line of code to improve the situation either.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
Please spare us of this tired trope. People who don't contribute to FOSS, are also allowed to have an opinion on FOSS if they're users of it. Otherwise how would they know what to improve if you don't allow feedback from users? What you're saying is like car companies thinking their customers' opinions are irelevant because their customers never contributed to designing parts of a car. If you're designing a mainstream product that's not just targeting professional SW developers who can contribute back with code, but also average users who will only use it but never contribute, then you will need to be open to mainstream levels of feedback that represent the average user and not just programmers. Otherwise let's keep complaining Linux and FOSS alternatives have only ~2% market share that it's somehow the users' fault for only buying Microsoft/Apple and not the projects' for being stubborn to feedback and out of touch with their mainstream users.
- EasyMark 3y ago
  I have contributed and improved more than a few FOSS pieces of software that I used when I thought it could use improvement or a bug fix, or even just documentation of the bug. FOSS isn't a company, and a huge portion of contributors aren't paid a dime. It bothers me when people criticize with vehemence against the developers, where I express my opinion is on the nature of belligerent complaints vs helpful ones. Have a nice day.
  - Klonoar 3y ago
    No, they're right. It's not a requirement to sling code to put your opinions out there about open source.
    - bee_rider 3y ago
      Everyone has their opinions. There are so many opinions out there, it isn’t really clear what to do with them. Put them out there, fine, now everybody else just has to decide if they care. One way to tell if you should care about an opinion is to check and see if the person professing it has taken any concrete actions toward getting the world to align with it.

kuschku 3y ago

The devs who actually implemented should be celebrated. But they're not the same people as the ones that blocked specs and PRs by stating this was "impossible". Blocking valuable improvements with an absolute statement like that makes contributing to such projects feel like fighting against windmills.

Vinnl 3y ago
Possibly, but it wouldn't be the first time that the first category of devs feel like they're the target of such comments. And it's a well-known phenomenon that negative comments outweigh ten positive ones. So from where I sit, one might as well not make them. (And I'm pushing back a bit to hopefully support the contributors who I'm grateful to.)