5 ms·

Dare I say the bible comes to mind

beezlewax 3y ago
This is my number one reason not to trust anything hawkers of religion state. And paradoxically I trust new religious manuscripts even less. In the context of the modern world they just seem like obvious hoaxes.
- wharvle 3y ago
  Getting to watch things like Mormonism (and, to some extent, Scientology, though that's a bit of a different beast) develop under conditions that provide pretty good records and a variety of disinterested accounts, has definitely been instructive for interpreting plausible courses of development of older religions. "Why would all these people lie?" "Why would so many people attest to having seen something that was actually bullshit? It must have happened!" Well... I mean, you'd think so, but not so much, it turns out.
otteromkram 3y ago
We could probably add in any religious documents. Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, etc. But, that wouldn't fit the, "Christianity bad" narrative.
- pfdietz 3y ago
  Sure it would. It's just that the others are also bad.
trelane 3y ago
How about all the historical fiction of Science or Atheism vs Christianity? Pointing out that atheism and scientism are making up and embellishing their own history is more of a controversial take in these circles.
- quesera 3y ago
  What is the historical fiction of Atheism?
  - trelane 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - quesera 3y ago
      Ah. You've got me all wrong. And my error was in propagating your capital-A "Atheism". The sins committed against groups of humans in the name of any belief system are not the topic I was asking about. They're all terrible. Choose your idol or lack thereof. And FWIW I think that's generally not a product of the system, it's a product of people and power and resource contention. But I was asking about the historical fiction of atheism. Lots of people live without a Christian or other god, with no particular concern for how others believe or any need for a mythology to support or define their views.
      - trelane 3y ago
        > You've got me all wrong. This is ironic, surely, given your response? > The sins committed against groups of humans in the name of any belief system are not the topic I was asking about. They're all terrible. Choose your idol or lack thereof. This is a Dodge. > Lots of people live without a Christian or other god, with no particular concern for how others believe or any need for a mythology to support or define their views. So you believe this is unique to atheists? Even ignoring the obvious "mythology" which rightfully can extend to common atheistic beliefs.
        quesera 3y ago
        When I use the word "mythology", I mean it to apply to any set of correlated beliefs. All religions have their mythologies, yes. But so do cultures and nations and corporations and universities and friend groups. I think I see your agenda here though. Atheists have done terrible things. Adolf, Joseph, Pol. If you choose these folks as representatives of atheism (or, of what happens when you don't have a supreme accountability) then sure. They constructed a non-Christian(etc) mythology that was not competitive with their own supremacy, and did bad things with the power derived. I think we agree here. But I don't view "atheism" as an organization or a correlated set of beliefs. You can choose to argue about "Atheism" and disagree. But we're talking about different things. See also "[Dd]emocratic", "[Ll]iberal", "[Ll]ibertarian", etc.
jonhohle 3y ago
There are many, many biblical texts from various centuries that agree with each other. The New Testament has twice as many ancient copies as any contemporary works. The Dead Sea scrolls are a good example of older copies being found… and they are no different from later copies.

This is my number one reason not to trust anything hawkers of religion state. And paradoxically I trust new religious manuscripts even less. In the context of the modern world they just seem like obvious hoaxes.

wharvle 3y ago
Getting to watch things like Mormonism (and, to some extent, Scientology, though that's a bit of a different beast) develop under conditions that provide pretty good records and a variety of disinterested accounts, has definitely been instructive for interpreting plausible courses of development of older religions. "Why would all these people lie?" "Why would so many people attest to having seen something that was actually bullshit? It must have happened!" Well... I mean, you'd think so, but not so much, it turns out.

otteromkram 3y ago

We could probably add in any religious documents. Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, etc. But, that wouldn't fit the, "Christianity bad" narrative.

pfdietz 3y ago
Sure it would. It's just that the others are also bad.

trelane 3y ago

How about all the historical fiction of Science or Atheism vs Christianity? Pointing out that atheism and scientism are making up and embellishing their own history is more of a controversial take in these circles.

quesera 3y ago
What is the historical fiction of Atheism?
- trelane 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - quesera 3y ago
    Ah. You've got me all wrong. And my error was in propagating your capital-A "Atheism". The sins committed against groups of humans in the name of any belief system are not the topic I was asking about. They're all terrible. Choose your idol or lack thereof. And FWIW I think that's generally not a product of the system, it's a product of people and power and resource contention. But I was asking about the historical fiction of atheism. Lots of people live without a Christian or other god, with no particular concern for how others believe or any need for a mythology to support or define their views.
    - trelane 3y ago
      > You've got me all wrong. This is ironic, surely, given your response? > The sins committed against groups of humans in the name of any belief system are not the topic I was asking about. They're all terrible. Choose your idol or lack thereof. This is a Dodge. > Lots of people live without a Christian or other god, with no particular concern for how others believe or any need for a mythology to support or define their views. So you believe this is unique to atheists? Even ignoring the obvious "mythology" which rightfully can extend to common atheistic beliefs.
      - quesera 3y ago
        When I use the word "mythology", I mean it to apply to any set of correlated beliefs. All religions have their mythologies, yes. But so do cultures and nations and corporations and universities and friend groups. I think I see your agenda here though. Atheists have done terrible things. Adolf, Joseph, Pol. If you choose these folks as representatives of atheism (or, of what happens when you don't have a supreme accountability) then sure. They constructed a non-Christian(etc) mythology that was not competitive with their own supremacy, and did bad things with the power derived. I think we agree here. But I don't view "atheism" as an organization or a correlated set of beliefs. You can choose to argue about "Atheism" and disagree. But we're talking about different things. See also "[Dd]emocratic", "[Ll]iberal", "[Ll]ibertarian", etc.

jonhohle 3y ago

There are many, many biblical texts from various centuries that agree with each other. The New Testament has twice as many ancient copies as any contemporary works. The Dead Sea scrolls are a good example of older copies being found… and they are no different from later copies.