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I don't think people characterizing this as "too far" are ignorant of that fact that Apple is within its rights to enforce whatever they want to. I think the th

I don't think people characterizing this as "too far" are ignorant of that fact that Apple is within its rights to enforce whatever they want to. I think the thread is more about "is Apple being a dick here?"... Unfortunately, Google is probably not capable of exploiting these mini-resentments and I don't think anybody else is either.

ChuckMcM 14y ago
Unfortunately, Google is probably not capable of exploiting these mini-resentments and I don't think anybody else is either. I'd love to hear more about that. This is my reasoning on why I think there is an opportunity there: Lets say (patent issues not withstanding), you created an exact clone of the iPad and iOS and sold it at the same price but without the 30% 'apple tax' on purchases. It seems reasonable to assume that if that were the only differentiating feature you would get more developers (they get to keep more of the money) and so it would get more apps, and the platform would outsell Apple's iPad with its constraints. Now granted that is a hell of a hypothetical, but if you can accept the claim that given two otherwise identical products, but one with more developer friendly policies, would allow the developer friendly one to be more successful, then we can talk about at what point the 'value' represented by that can overcome the fact that the product is not an iPad. Does that make sense? The Android tablet ecosystem is currently horrible. Between the device diversity, the user experience diversity, and the release diversity, and the app experience diversity it is a wild and woolly place which has not been able to compete well with iPad. Contrast that to the Kindle Fire which started with Android, locked down a lot of stuff that Google doesn't, and that has gained more traction than any other Android based tablet. To me, that shows a market for a non-iPad but with Apple like quality control and predictability. Depending on Amazon's success, Google might just wake up and fix their world (and of course they might not, it would not be the first time a large organization just didn't 'get' it) But you also claim that nobody can exploit these resentments, and certainly Amazon is going to try and seem to have some modest success in that regard. Love to hear the counter point of view.
- rogerchucker 14y ago
  Are there a lot of examples, where an open and developer-friendly platform came from behind and usurped the incumbent that was also dominant in the market? I'm not sure the Mac-PC analogy flies here since Mac wasn't dominant - it was simply an incumbent. The only remotely-related example I can think of, given my limited knowledge and wisdom, is MySpace vs Facebook. But then again, I am not aware if MySpace was a walled garden and made its residents claustrophobic. Based on the examples I have witnessed, I simply do not have any hope in the existence of an open platform with Apple-esque quality and eco-system (the assumption being viable eco-system automatically implies major market share). Sorry if I spoke in circles!
  - Terretta 14y ago
    People don't like to talk about this, but MySpace to Facebook was less about developer APIs and more about urbs to suburbs.
    - philwelch 14y ago
      If you're implying it was a race and class issue, well, let's just say that hasn't kept anyone away from Twitter. I think it had more to do with the fact that MySpace pages all looked like crap and played shitty music at you automatically when you opened them. MySpace to Facebook was more about user experience, and Facebook's ascendancy was a fait accompli by the time they launched their API.
      - CamperBob 14y ago
        I think it had more to do with the fact that MySpace pages all looked like crap and played shitty music at you automatically when you opened them. I think you're both saying exactly the same thing, using different words.
  - ChuckMcM 14y ago
    There are not a lot of examples. However, the markets adjust. [And for those trying to second guess me, there isn't any hidden message in the message or anything] One of the areas that hasn't been explored a whole lot in the product space is 'moderated open' which is how I think of the Linux Kernel. You can change it all you want, get the source, etc, but if you want to get into the kernel that everyone else sees you have to go through Linus. He keeps the quality pretty high by doing that. It was similar to FreeBSD as 'open source' but 'moderated commits.' Now in the tablet space I have yet to see someone to take that path. There do not seem to be too many successes for business people to draw on for inspiration. That being said, as an example the Kindle Fire has sold a lot of units. And it is a completely legit argument that Amazon 'makes it up in book sales' (which is their business model) much like the iPod can be subsidized by iTunes purchases. And I am sympathetic to mladenkovacevic's comment about a wild and free ecosystem can be more useful/desirable than a locked down one. But I also recognize that there are lots of folks who are interested in the product, not deeply technical, and chafe under Apple's restrictions on developers. If anyone could 'afford' to make a run at this, Google could. And perhaps they will with a 'Google Experience' tablet that has been rumored. I understand your lack of hope given the things you have seen so far. Back in the before times of personal computers when they had lights and switches on the front, the introduction of the IBM PC for the 'suits' was a huge pain. And really successful brands at the time got pushed aside. Google pushed aside Alta Vista, Sun pushed aside DEC, Compaq/Dell pushed aside the IBM PC, and Android phones at least have put a huge crimp in Apple's style. Interesting to see how this evolves.
cooldeal 14y ago
For what it's worth, Windows 8 App Store will not restrict in-app purchasing like the iOS App Store does.
- taligent 14y ago
  And the Mac App Store doesn't restrict anything either. What is your point ?
  - recoiledsnake 14y ago
    There will be iPad-like Windows RT tablets running on ARM with Metro apps from the Windows 8 marketplace. In that sense, it is directly comparable to the iOS App Store, at least to the extend of iPad apps.
- roguecoder 14y ago
  It's great to hear that Microsoft intends to be accommodating. However, unless you can convince at least 5% of my mobile users to buy a Windows Phone it's going to be hard to justify the extra effort for a third app. Personally, the idea of hardware-accelerated HTML5/JS apps makes my heart sing, so I'm really hoping it takes off with consumers. Maybe it'll be the best texting phone ever and every teenager in the world will swap. A dude can dream...
guelo 14y ago
Not capable? How about Google blocking Gmail, Youtube, Maps and Docs on iOS? They should do it now, Apple is playing hardball in the app store and the courts, time for Google to fight back.
- FuzzyDunlop 14y ago
  No one in their right mind would punish their customers/users for making a particular product purchase decision. They would be cutting their own nose off to spite their face.
  - guelo 14y ago
    You mean like how Apple punishes its customers that want Dropbox apps?
    - FuzzyDunlop 14y ago
      Touché

ChuckMcM 14y ago

Unfortunately, Google is probably not capable of exploiting these mini-resentments and I don't think anybody else is either. I'd love to hear more about that. This is my reasoning on why I think there is an opportunity there: Lets say (patent issues not withstanding), you created an exact clone of the iPad and iOS and sold it at the same price but without the 30% 'apple tax' on purchases. It seems reasonable to assume that if that were the only differentiating feature you would get more developers (they get to keep more of the money) and so it would get more apps, and the platform would outsell Apple's iPad with its constraints. Now granted that is a hell of a hypothetical, but if you can accept the claim that given two otherwise identical products, but one with more developer friendly policies, would allow the developer friendly one to be more successful, then we can talk about at what point the 'value' represented by that can overcome the fact that the product is not an iPad. Does that make sense? The Android tablet ecosystem is currently horrible. Between the device diversity, the user experience diversity, and the release diversity, and the app experience diversity it is a wild and woolly place which has not been able to compete well with iPad. Contrast that to the Kindle Fire which started with Android, locked down a lot of stuff that Google doesn't, and that has gained more traction than any other Android based tablet. To me, that shows a market for a non-iPad but with Apple like quality control and predictability. Depending on Amazon's success, Google might just wake up and fix their world (and of course they might not, it would not be the first time a large organization just didn't 'get' it) But you also claim that nobody can exploit these resentments, and certainly Amazon is going to try and seem to have some modest success in that regard. Love to hear the counter point of view.

rogerchucker 14y ago
Are there a lot of examples, where an open and developer-friendly platform came from behind and usurped the incumbent that was also dominant in the market? I'm not sure the Mac-PC analogy flies here since Mac wasn't dominant - it was simply an incumbent. The only remotely-related example I can think of, given my limited knowledge and wisdom, is MySpace vs Facebook. But then again, I am not aware if MySpace was a walled garden and made its residents claustrophobic. Based on the examples I have witnessed, I simply do not have any hope in the existence of an open platform with Apple-esque quality and eco-system (the assumption being viable eco-system automatically implies major market share). Sorry if I spoke in circles!
- Terretta 14y ago
  People don't like to talk about this, but MySpace to Facebook was less about developer APIs and more about urbs to suburbs.
  - philwelch 14y ago
    If you're implying it was a race and class issue, well, let's just say that hasn't kept anyone away from Twitter. I think it had more to do with the fact that MySpace pages all looked like crap and played shitty music at you automatically when you opened them. MySpace to Facebook was more about user experience, and Facebook's ascendancy was a fait accompli by the time they launched their API.
    - CamperBob 14y ago
      I think it had more to do with the fact that MySpace pages all looked like crap and played shitty music at you automatically when you opened them. I think you're both saying exactly the same thing, using different words.
- ChuckMcM 14y ago
  There are not a lot of examples. However, the markets adjust. [And for those trying to second guess me, there isn't any hidden message in the message or anything] One of the areas that hasn't been explored a whole lot in the product space is 'moderated open' which is how I think of the Linux Kernel. You can change it all you want, get the source, etc, but if you want to get into the kernel that everyone else sees you have to go through Linus. He keeps the quality pretty high by doing that. It was similar to FreeBSD as 'open source' but 'moderated commits.' Now in the tablet space I have yet to see someone to take that path. There do not seem to be too many successes for business people to draw on for inspiration. That being said, as an example the Kindle Fire has sold a lot of units. And it is a completely legit argument that Amazon 'makes it up in book sales' (which is their business model) much like the iPod can be subsidized by iTunes purchases. And I am sympathetic to mladenkovacevic's comment about a wild and free ecosystem can be more useful/desirable than a locked down one. But I also recognize that there are lots of folks who are interested in the product, not deeply technical, and chafe under Apple's restrictions on developers. If anyone could 'afford' to make a run at this, Google could. And perhaps they will with a 'Google Experience' tablet that has been rumored. I understand your lack of hope given the things you have seen so far. Back in the before times of personal computers when they had lights and switches on the front, the introduction of the IBM PC for the 'suits' was a huge pain. And really successful brands at the time got pushed aside. Google pushed aside Alta Vista, Sun pushed aside DEC, Compaq/Dell pushed aside the IBM PC, and Android phones at least have put a huge crimp in Apple's style. Interesting to see how this evolves.

cooldeal 14y ago

For what it's worth, Windows 8 App Store will not restrict in-app purchasing like the iOS App Store does.

taligent 14y ago
And the Mac App Store doesn't restrict anything either. What is your point ?
- recoiledsnake 14y ago
  There will be iPad-like Windows RT tablets running on ARM with Metro apps from the Windows 8 marketplace. In that sense, it is directly comparable to the iOS App Store, at least to the extend of iPad apps.
roguecoder 14y ago
It's great to hear that Microsoft intends to be accommodating. However, unless you can convince at least 5% of my mobile users to buy a Windows Phone it's going to be hard to justify the extra effort for a third app. Personally, the idea of hardware-accelerated HTML5/JS apps makes my heart sing, so I'm really hoping it takes off with consumers. Maybe it'll be the best texting phone ever and every teenager in the world will swap. A dude can dream...

guelo 14y ago

Not capable? How about Google blocking Gmail, Youtube, Maps and Docs on iOS? They should do it now, Apple is playing hardball in the app store and the courts, time for Google to fight back.

FuzzyDunlop 14y ago
No one in their right mind would punish their customers/users for making a particular product purchase decision. They would be cutting their own nose off to spite their face.
- guelo 14y ago
  You mean like how Apple punishes its customers that want Dropbox apps?
  - FuzzyDunlop 14y ago
    Touché