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Of course, you can have your view and express it in this thread. I just don't get why that needs to come with being rude and confrontational towards the person

by ludwik 3y ago

Of course, you can have your view and express it in this thread. I just don't get why that needs to come with being rude and confrontational towards the person who simply provided important context.

thaumasiotes 3y ago
He did more than that. He also assured everyone that this was an isolated phenomenon: >>> Apple’s HIG explain why this decision was made (my link), so I don’t think it is part of a larger trend and we shouldn’t expect it to impact anyone not using VisionOS, or other such headsets with eye tracking. Dalewyn's response makes perfect sense in this context.
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  Exactly. Apple's influence with regards to design and aesthetics is unparalleled, to downplay it is either straight ignorance or naivety. Everything from naming schemes (iPhone -> Core i3/5/7/9, Macbook -> ASUS Zenbook, et al.), to desktop interfaces (MacOS -> Windows 11 Explorer, GNOME), to phone interfaces (iOS -> Android), to connectivity (rather the lack thereof), to form factor (Macbook Air -> Intel ultrabooks and EVO), to entire markets (smartphones, tablets, portable music players) and more have all been defined or redefined and led by Apple. To suggest anything Apple does concerning design would be an isolated incident is ridiculous. If Apple says "jump", the IT industry asks "how high?".
- ludwik 3y ago
  This is a factual statement. As it stands, the change isn't part of a larger trend even within Apple itself. It's isolated to a single niche platform that has specific UI constraints where the change actually makes sense. Apple hasn't applied this change to its other platforms, where it could become widespread and influence other vendors. Of course, it's entirely valid to argue that this might change in the future. But again, why resort to personal attacks against someone who's simply bringing important context to the discussion?
  - thaumasiotes 3y ago
    > But again, why resort to personal attacks against someone who's simply bringing important context to the discussion? Because that is an intentionally dishonest way to describe what he's doing? He's bringing context, and he's providing some low-quality opinions. What's being attacked are the opinions. They are not factual.
    - al_borland 3y ago
      A change made to a single OS, which was designed around a fundamentally different way of interaction than any other OS they have, that hasn’t been used anywhere else, is not a trend. If they start moving this to other operating systems, then it becomes a trend and I’d agree with you. It is currently a one-off on a niche device, which has UI requirements that differ from the requirements of the past 4 decades, as explained in the HIG. You’re attacking opinions based on your own opinions and assumptions about the future and how all other companies might react, but that hasn’t happened yet and everyone doesn’t follow Apple blindly. Apple still doesn’t have touch screens on laptops, a human interface decision based on how a person will interact with the device, and the industry at large has decided to go their own way on this and not follow Apple’s lead. Apple has been making a mouse with a touch surface and a trackpad for desktops for many years, this is a decision based on how a human will interact with the system, that the industry has also not followed. There are also UI elements in iOS, especial early iOS [1], that were changed to better work on a small touch screen that were never brought to macOS, or adopted by the whole industry. They have been used less and less as screens have gotten larger and better able to use more standard conventions. The select dropdown is alive and well, despite Apple changing its implementation in 2007, for similar reasons to the stated reason for changing the checkbox implementation on VisionOS. [1] https://i.stack.imgur.com/Fi0ex.jpg https://i.stack.imgur.com/Fi0ex.jpg

by ludwik 3y ago

Of course, you can have your view and express it in this thread. I just don't get why that needs to come with being rude and confrontational towards the person who simply provided important context.

thaumasiotes 3y ago

He did more than that. He also assured everyone that this was an isolated phenomenon: >>> Apple’s HIG explain why this decision was made (my link), so I don’t think it is part of a larger trend and we shouldn’t expect it to impact anyone not using VisionOS, or other such headsets with eye tracking. Dalewyn's response makes perfect sense in this context.

Dalewyn 3y ago
Exactly. Apple's influence with regards to design and aesthetics is unparalleled, to downplay it is either straight ignorance or naivety. Everything from naming schemes (iPhone -> Core i3/5/7/9, Macbook -> ASUS Zenbook, et al.), to desktop interfaces (MacOS -> Windows 11 Explorer, GNOME), to phone interfaces (iOS -> Android), to connectivity (rather the lack thereof), to form factor (Macbook Air -> Intel ultrabooks and EVO), to entire markets (smartphones, tablets, portable music players) and more have all been defined or redefined and led by Apple. To suggest anything Apple does concerning design would be an isolated incident is ridiculous. If Apple says "jump", the IT industry asks "how high?".
ludwik 3y ago
This is a factual statement. As it stands, the change isn't part of a larger trend even within Apple itself. It's isolated to a single niche platform that has specific UI constraints where the change actually makes sense. Apple hasn't applied this change to its other platforms, where it could become widespread and influence other vendors. Of course, it's entirely valid to argue that this might change in the future. But again, why resort to personal attacks against someone who's simply bringing important context to the discussion?
- thaumasiotes 3y ago
  > But again, why resort to personal attacks against someone who's simply bringing important context to the discussion? Because that is an intentionally dishonest way to describe what he's doing? He's bringing context, and he's providing some low-quality opinions. What's being attacked are the opinions. They are not factual.
  - al_borland 3y ago
    A change made to a single OS, which was designed around a fundamentally different way of interaction than any other OS they have, that hasn’t been used anywhere else, is not a trend. If they start moving this to other operating systems, then it becomes a trend and I’d agree with you. It is currently a one-off on a niche device, which has UI requirements that differ from the requirements of the past 4 decades, as explained in the HIG. You’re attacking opinions based on your own opinions and assumptions about the future and how all other companies might react, but that hasn’t happened yet and everyone doesn’t follow Apple blindly. Apple still doesn’t have touch screens on laptops, a human interface decision based on how a person will interact with the device, and the industry at large has decided to go their own way on this and not follow Apple’s lead. Apple has been making a mouse with a touch surface and a trackpad for desktops for many years, this is a decision based on how a human will interact with the system, that the industry has also not followed. There are also UI elements in iOS, especial early iOS [1], that were changed to better work on a small touch screen that were never brought to macOS, or adopted by the whole industry. They have been used less and less as screens have gotten larger and better able to use more standard conventions. The select dropdown is alive and well, despite Apple changing its implementation in 2007, for similar reasons to the stated reason for changing the checkbox implementation on VisionOS. [1] https://i.stack.imgur.com/Fi0ex.jpg https://i.stack.imgur.com/Fi0ex.jpg