3 ms·

I'm sorry, I don't find a junior not knowing what terms to google to be a compelling argument. Nor do I find "proprietary workplace tools" to be a compelling a

I'm sorry, I don't find a junior not knowing what terms to google to be a compelling argument. Nor do I find "proprietary workplace tools" to be a compelling arguement. Either the on-boarding sucked, or they didn't pay attention to it, either way that "is definitely not the" seniors fault. If you can't expend the basic effort, don't expect someone else to bail you out...

johnnyanmac 3y ago
In that case I am glad you've only had properly functional workplaces with perfect on-boarding, documentation that properly explains all jargon and tribal knowledge, lack of legacy code with random landmines that would take weeks to understand from scratch, and no directors that will change the entire trajectory of a project on a whim. My reality is a lot more bleak. That and/or you went straight into a truly elite workplace where a "junior" is still someone with years of experience in industry. It is hard to sympathize with truly green workers when you have none. And industry seems to be leaning towards that as of late.
- mech422 3y ago
  >>If you can't expend the basic effort, don't expect someone else to bail you out... Wow - you really went out of your way to ignore that basic statement I made (and I stand by). No one expects juniors to come in with perfect knowledge (wouldn't that make them a senior/god? :-P) but they do expect them to do the basics. Why does that seem to sound so unreasonable to you? >>legacy code with random landmines that would take weeks to understand from scratch I also specifically mentioned something like this would be something I don't expect juniors to know and would have no problems helping a junior dev. with (it takes more then 10 minutes to explain...) Also, if a junior dev is getting a project like that either the Team Lead or the 'resident expert' will probably go out of their way up front to point out the 'landmines'. Seniors know the organizations don't have perfect training. We got bit by it when we were juniors, we saw what all the juniors before had problems with ... we understand that (and often try to help with some stuff when you walk in the door eg "oh - the company directory is out of date, here's a list of updated names and phone numbers for people" or "Neteng doesn't use jira anymore, they use XXX - ask Mr. Foo to give you access") By the same token, seniors can tell when you haven't "expended the basic effort" on something and thats when it gets annoying. If the answer to something is "search your email for 'onboarding' - all your logins are in that", we're gonna wonder why you didn't read it to begin with. P.S. if the situations you describe above are what you consider 'bleak', you're probably not gonna have much fun in tech as it sounds pretty average to me. Especially Directors/Mgmt changing project scopes/priorities/etc on a whim - that probably happens daily :-P (Also, it probably accounts for 50%+ of the issues with on-boarding docs and 'landmines') Enjoy the Weekend
  - johnnyanmac 3y ago
    I think ultimately the issue here is we won't ever come to an agreement of what is "basic effort." and this is why juniors can get mixed signals between "struggle for days on something that can be resolved with one quick question to slack". And "ask any question that comes to mind with zero thought". I personally hit the former extreme a lot due to early careers outright refusing to give me help as some sort of "proving grounds" to show I can setup my own admin portal (I wasn't even in IT, I asked one and they were told by management not to help me), and that caused some extreme correction in later roles who encouraged me to simply ask. I see it a lot more often than a junior asking what what some language keyword is. So my advice will be biased toward encouraging juniors to "asked stupid questions". It just feels like bad faith (again based on my experiences) to assume juniors are stupid, lazy, and don't respect others' time. >P.S. if the situations you describe above are what you consider 'bleak', you're probably not gonna have much fun in tech as it sounds pretty average to me. Been in for a while, I'm just numb to it. But just because I suffered doesn't mean I want everyone else coming in to go through the same things. The top comment here is talking about society becoming more and more isolated and this attitude of chastising newcomers for their lack of experience will just discourage them further from using their co-workers as a relationship to give and take from, instead of some cold evaluator to gain approval of. At the end of the day a lot of work relationships isn't different from social relationships; co-workers remember how you made them feel, and not as much how many PRs you merge in. So even if you have some machine like efficiency you will simply be seen as an avatar on a chat screen if you don't make attempts to reach out. And being afraid of "stupid questions" will make you afraid of asking about anything else.
    - mech422 3y ago
      >> I think ultimately the issue here is we won't ever come to an agreement of what is "basic effort." Yeah - probably just talking past each other... :-D >> I personally hit the former extreme a lot due to early careers outright refusing to give me help... Wow - sorry you had such a shitty introduction (see below) >> But just because I suffered doesn't mean I want everyone else coming in to go through the same things FWiW, I've never actually seen seniors want that either. Generally, when I've seen people 'setup to fail' - its been a management decision (didn't like your tie, had to reduce head count etc.). I bet the IT guys in your first gig WANTED to help, but as you said, they were told not to.. Seniors WANT juniors to succeed - if only for selfish reasons: if a junior 'fails' - the seniors will probably have to clean up the mess, but if a junior 'succeeds' it allows the work to be spread out across another person. Also, the juniors might have some ideas about smoothing out rough spots, improving on-boarding, etc. Bonus points if they can help clear the 'landmines' (I've actually seen juniors do that - fresh set of eyes and all that..) So naturally, you want juniors to succeed. As you mentioned above, I think it probably just comes down to what is 'basic effort' and what does it mean to respect people's time. As you said "co-workers remember how you made them feel" - Juniors that make you feel like they don't respect your time definitely get remembered too. P.S. - I _hate_ being the 'smartest guy in the room'...I love working places where there's lots of people to learn from and I definitely ask a lot of 'stupid questions'...But I do try to do initial research before asking. Anyway, Glad that first gig didn't sour you on the whole career :-)

johnnyanmac 3y ago

In that case I am glad you've only had properly functional workplaces with perfect on-boarding, documentation that properly explains all jargon and tribal knowledge, lack of legacy code with random landmines that would take weeks to understand from scratch, and no directors that will change the entire trajectory of a project on a whim. My reality is a lot more bleak. That and/or you went straight into a truly elite workplace where a "junior" is still someone with years of experience in industry. It is hard to sympathize with truly green workers when you have none. And industry seems to be leaning towards that as of late.

mech422 3y ago
>>If you can't expend the basic effort, don't expect someone else to bail you out... Wow - you really went out of your way to ignore that basic statement I made (and I stand by). No one expects juniors to come in with perfect knowledge (wouldn't that make them a senior/god? :-P) but they do expect them to do the basics. Why does that seem to sound so unreasonable to you? >>legacy code with random landmines that would take weeks to understand from scratch I also specifically mentioned something like this would be something I don't expect juniors to know and would have no problems helping a junior dev. with (it takes more then 10 minutes to explain...) Also, if a junior dev is getting a project like that either the Team Lead or the 'resident expert' will probably go out of their way up front to point out the 'landmines'. Seniors know the organizations don't have perfect training. We got bit by it when we were juniors, we saw what all the juniors before had problems with ... we understand that (and often try to help with some stuff when you walk in the door eg "oh - the company directory is out of date, here's a list of updated names and phone numbers for people" or "Neteng doesn't use jira anymore, they use XXX - ask Mr. Foo to give you access") By the same token, seniors can tell when you haven't "expended the basic effort" on something and thats when it gets annoying. If the answer to something is "search your email for 'onboarding' - all your logins are in that", we're gonna wonder why you didn't read it to begin with. P.S. if the situations you describe above are what you consider 'bleak', you're probably not gonna have much fun in tech as it sounds pretty average to me. Especially Directors/Mgmt changing project scopes/priorities/etc on a whim - that probably happens daily :-P (Also, it probably accounts for 50%+ of the issues with on-boarding docs and 'landmines') Enjoy the Weekend
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  I think ultimately the issue here is we won't ever come to an agreement of what is "basic effort." and this is why juniors can get mixed signals between "struggle for days on something that can be resolved with one quick question to slack". And "ask any question that comes to mind with zero thought". I personally hit the former extreme a lot due to early careers outright refusing to give me help as some sort of "proving grounds" to show I can setup my own admin portal (I wasn't even in IT, I asked one and they were told by management not to help me), and that caused some extreme correction in later roles who encouraged me to simply ask. I see it a lot more often than a junior asking what what some language keyword is. So my advice will be biased toward encouraging juniors to "asked stupid questions". It just feels like bad faith (again based on my experiences) to assume juniors are stupid, lazy, and don't respect others' time. >P.S. if the situations you describe above are what you consider 'bleak', you're probably not gonna have much fun in tech as it sounds pretty average to me. Been in for a while, I'm just numb to it. But just because I suffered doesn't mean I want everyone else coming in to go through the same things. The top comment here is talking about society becoming more and more isolated and this attitude of chastising newcomers for their lack of experience will just discourage them further from using their co-workers as a relationship to give and take from, instead of some cold evaluator to gain approval of. At the end of the day a lot of work relationships isn't different from social relationships; co-workers remember how you made them feel, and not as much how many PRs you merge in. So even if you have some machine like efficiency you will simply be seen as an avatar on a chat screen if you don't make attempts to reach out. And being afraid of "stupid questions" will make you afraid of asking about anything else.
  - mech422 3y ago
    >> I think ultimately the issue here is we won't ever come to an agreement of what is "basic effort." Yeah - probably just talking past each other... :-D >> I personally hit the former extreme a lot due to early careers outright refusing to give me help... Wow - sorry you had such a shitty introduction (see below) >> But just because I suffered doesn't mean I want everyone else coming in to go through the same things FWiW, I've never actually seen seniors want that either. Generally, when I've seen people 'setup to fail' - its been a management decision (didn't like your tie, had to reduce head count etc.). I bet the IT guys in your first gig WANTED to help, but as you said, they were told not to.. Seniors WANT juniors to succeed - if only for selfish reasons: if a junior 'fails' - the seniors will probably have to clean up the mess, but if a junior 'succeeds' it allows the work to be spread out across another person. Also, the juniors might have some ideas about smoothing out rough spots, improving on-boarding, etc. Bonus points if they can help clear the 'landmines' (I've actually seen juniors do that - fresh set of eyes and all that..) So naturally, you want juniors to succeed. As you mentioned above, I think it probably just comes down to what is 'basic effort' and what does it mean to respect people's time. As you said "co-workers remember how you made them feel" - Juniors that make you feel like they don't respect your time definitely get remembered too. P.S. - I _hate_ being the 'smartest guy in the room'...I love working places where there's lots of people to learn from and I definitely ask a lot of 'stupid questions'...But I do try to do initial research before asking. Anyway, Glad that first gig didn't sour you on the whole career :-)