4 ms·
Is it theft?
by beardyw 3y ago
Is it theft?
- DamonHD 3y agoProbably, in some cases/jurisdictions.
- beardyw 3y agoBut technically do you think this adversely effects the electricity company? If not, it's just overspill.
- lukan 3y agoOne of the comments says, it does effect the electric company (why shouldn't it, energy does not come out of nowhere) and they can meassure it. "Velemu says: There was one case in Finland in The 90s, where someone did this to power their summer cottage. When Power company found, where the extra parasitic load came from, they sued the guy to hell and back again. This kind of load is actually actively measured by Power companies, since it is also used to find other failure modes on powerlines, and is easy to detect. Just don’t do it…."
- card_zero 3y agoTim Hunkin's cartoon encyclopedia (from the 80s) mentions a conviction in Canada. https://www.rudimentsofwisdom.com/pages/power%20lines.htm https://www.rudimentsofwisdom.com/pages/power%20lines.htm
- nickcotter 3y agoSome other cases mentioned here: https://www.industrytap.com/electromagnetic-harvesters-free-lunch-or-theft/1805 https://www.industrytap.com/electromagnetic-harvesters-free-...
- 15457345234 3y agoI think the main reason the electricity companies discourage this is the hazard it presents. The 'collector' is basically a current transformer, which means: 1. If the outputs of the 'collector' go open circuit (because the rectifier/capacitor/whatever dies) the voltage at those terminals is going to rise theoretically towards infinity - insulation breakdown and discharge will occur which is likely to result in a fire. 2. The current generated by the 'collector' is going to be proportional to the transmission line current; if a ground fault occurs on the line the current in the collector winding is going to spike up to some silly level; that will probably result destruction of whatever is connected to the collector outputs and subsequently a fire.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- shagie 3y agoImagine the alternate history political and legal mess if PG&E had found such a setup in proximity to the start of the fires back in '21 and '22.
- userbinator 3y agoI'm not an RF expert, but I believe this is a matter of near field vs far field. In far field (like typical radio broadcasts), there's no "coupling" between the transmitter and receiver so the former just radiates its power and cannot distinguish whether it's being received. In near field (RFID etc.), there is a coupling and the transmitter can definitely tell whether a receiver is present and absorbing the power. Thus, and IANAL either, but IMHO harvesting from the near field definitely seems more like stealing, while the far field doesn't; is it stealing to effectively recover "waste energy" that would otherwise just be dissipated uselessly, and wouldn't cause any measurable increase in consumption from the power company?
- jacquesm 3y agoThis is exactly it. If you were to do this 'at scale' you'd end up having to generate more electricity to compensate for the losses, so it's clearly theft. Whether your grid coupling uses a capacitor or an inductor isn't relevant, clearly you are taking energy from the grid and is the thing that matters.
- DamonHD 3y agoIndeed, and thus I stand by my original point, though downvoted! The UK Wireless Telegraphy Acts made it illegal to listen to something that you weren't meant to by fiat without need of any proof of harm AFAIK, so there could easily be random laws in various places outlawing this extraction of power that has to be made up by other generation, even if small. You generally aren't allowed to extract even small amounts of power from the system unmetered with a wire either, without specific permission.
- lukan 3y agoSince they operated directly under the wires, I think this is clearly a near field. Generating power from far fields does not seem likely to get any meaningful yield. I remember my father showing me how to build a passive radio receiver using a strong sender nearby and it worked. No other power source involved but you could listen to the (weak) output. So in theory possible, but not really useful.
- jacquesm 3y agoTechnically, yes it does adversely affect the electricity company. It's not 'just overspill', that's how electricity moves from one place to another.
- apetersson 3y agoI suppose not. If my neighbour has a water sprinkler, it's not theft if I put a tree where it spills on my property. It's rather debatable if the strong electric fields are a disturbance to the environment and the power company should be obligated to insulate better, potentially leading to higher transmission efficiency.
- greyface- 3y agoWhat if your neighbor has a water sprinkler that is watering their own lawn, adjacent to yours, initially with no spillage, and you install a big array of fans on your property to induce air currents that cause it to start spilling over onto yours?
- arwineap 3y agoWhat would the fan be in this case? I'm feeling like the initial analogy fit the premise better.
- greyface- 3y agoThe fan is analogous to the antenna - it changes the RF landscape, such that a small amount of energy that would otherwise have stayed in the transmission line begins to flow into the antenna, similar to how the fan changes the air current landscape.
- shrubble 3y agoIt depends, if it is considered radiation then it is "landing" on your property; so you have the right to use it, same as the radio frequencies that pass by you are legal to listen in on, such as AM or FM radio...
- advisedwang 3y agoIt isn't the same at a technical level though. AM/FM is "far field" where you are many wavelengths away and are truly emitting radiation. This is "near field" where you are with a wavelength and are coupled with the source. This is actually drawing power.
- jacquesm 3y agoYes.
- thsksbd 3y agoIf you unscramble the tv signal entering your home are you stealing? Also this is taking. This isn't power the gris would have lost anyway, you're coupling it on purpose increasing the leakage
- thsksbd 3y agoTo be clear I don't think unscrambling a TV signal is theft, Im just pointing out that it is a matter of law. The Tv provider didnt loos anything. The grid provider, however, did loose something, namely they have to burn more fossil fuels to overcome the increased resistance on the line.
- Thri4895o 3y agoIt is. Energy drain through induction, depends on conductivity of environment. By putting cables there, you increase energy loss on main line.
- TT-392 3y agoThe same goes if the fence is there and grounded though?
- bradfa 3y agoI believe the intent matters. If you need a fence and you’re not trying to use the electricity then it is not theft. If your intent is to consume the power then it is theft. Doing this kind of power harvesting off transmission lines is a standard Electric Power university course exam question for intro to transmission lines courses.
- 127361 3y agoNo more theft than putting a solar panel under a street light that's shining on your property.
- agsnu 3y agoNot true, either physically or legally.
- 127361 3y agoThe line losses are so huge anyway, this would barely even register. Heck a few large trees close to the power line would drain more energy than this. Considering such a trivial act as "theft" is completely ridiculous.
- speff 3y agoIt’s interesting how confidently they asserted something plain wrong.
- defrost 3y agoA more accurate analogy would be old style overhead drive shafts that powered many machines in large early industrial revolution factories. This is equivilant to throwing an extra belt over the shift to power your own machine. There's only so much power available and as more and more machines are driven there's less and less ommph to power more. This is literally adding "drag" to the overhead power line and decreasing what reaches the end point of transmission. It's not equivilant to scooping up photons that were being thrown on the ground anyway.
- 127361 3y agoIt's not possible to abstract any sizable amount of energy this way, unless the line is kilometers long. It's the scale of the "theft" that matters, which is so trivial compared to the inherent losses in the transmission line.
- idiotsecant 3y ago