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Harvesting electricity from high-voltage transmission lines using fences
- beardyw 3y agoIs it theft?
- DamonHD 3y agoProbably, in some cases/jurisdictions.
- beardyw 3y agoBut technically do you think this adversely effects the electricity company? If not, it's just overspill.
- lukan 3y agoOne of the comments says, it does effect the electric company (why shouldn't it, energy does not come out of nowhere) and they can meassure it. "Velemu says: There was one case in Finland in The 90s, where someone did this to power their summer cottage. When Power company found, where the extra parasitic load came from, they sued the guy to hell and back again. This kind of load is actually actively measured by Power companies, since it is also used to find other failure modes on powerlines, and is easy to detect. Just don’t do it…."
- card_zero 3y agoTim Hunkin's cartoon encyclopedia (from the 80s) mentions a conviction in Canada. https://www.rudimentsofwisdom.com/pages/power%20lines.htm https://www.rudimentsofwisdom.com/pages/power%20lines.htm
- nickcotter 3y agoSome other cases mentioned here: https://www.industrytap.com/electromagnetic-harvesters-free-lunch-or-theft/1805 https://www.industrytap.com/electromagnetic-harvesters-free-...
- 15457345234 3y agoI think the main reason the electricity companies discourage this is the hazard it presents. The 'collector' is basically a current transformer, which means: 1. If the outputs of the 'collector' go open circuit (because the rectifier/capacitor/whatever dies) the voltage at those terminals is going to rise theoretically towards infinity - insulation breakdown and discharge will occur which is likely to result in a fire. 2. The current generated by the 'collector' is going to be proportional to the transmission line current; if a ground fault occurs on the line the current in the collector winding is going to spike up to some silly level; that will probably result destruction of whatever is connected to the collector outputs and subsequently a fire.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- shagie 3y agoImagine the alternate history political and legal mess if PG&E had found such a setup in proximity to the start of the fires back in '21 and '22.
- userbinator 3y agoI'm not an RF expert, but I believe this is a matter of near field vs far field. In far field (like typical radio broadcasts), there's no "coupling" between the transmitter and receiver so the former just radiates its power and cannot distinguish whether it's being received. In near field (RFID etc.), there is a coupling and the transmitter can definitely tell whether a receiver is present and absorbing the power. Thus, and IANAL either, but IMHO harvesting from the near field definitely seems more like stealing, while the far field doesn't; is it stealing to effectively recover "waste energy" that would otherwise just be dissipated uselessly, and wouldn't cause any measurable increase in consumption from the power company?
- jacquesm 3y agoThis is exactly it. If you were to do this 'at scale' you'd end up having to generate more electricity to compensate for the losses, so it's clearly theft. Whether your grid coupling uses a capacitor or an inductor isn't relevant, clearly you are taking energy from the grid and is the thing that matters.
- DamonHD 3y agoIndeed, and thus I stand by my original point, though downvoted! The UK Wireless Telegraphy Acts made it illegal to listen to something that you weren't meant to by fiat without need of any proof of harm AFAIK, so there could easily be random laws in various places outlawing this extraction of power that has to be made up by other generation, even if small. You generally aren't allowed to extract even small amounts of power from the system unmetered with a wire either, without specific permission.
- lukan 3y agoSince they operated directly under the wires, I think this is clearly a near field. Generating power from far fields does not seem likely to get any meaningful yield. I remember my father showing me how to build a passive radio receiver using a strong sender nearby and it worked. No other power source involved but you could listen to the (weak) output. So in theory possible, but not really useful.
- jacquesm 3y agoTechnically, yes it does adversely affect the electricity company. It's not 'just overspill', that's how electricity moves from one place to another.
- apetersson 3y agoI suppose not. If my neighbour has a water sprinkler, it's not theft if I put a tree where it spills on my property. It's rather debatable if the strong electric fields are a disturbance to the environment and the power company should be obligated to insulate better, potentially leading to higher transmission efficiency.
- greyface- 3y agoWhat if your neighbor has a water sprinkler that is watering their own lawn, adjacent to yours, initially with no spillage, and you install a big array of fans on your property to induce air currents that cause it to start spilling over onto yours?
- arwineap 3y agoWhat would the fan be in this case? I'm feeling like the initial analogy fit the premise better.
- greyface- 3y agoThe fan is analogous to the antenna - it changes the RF landscape, such that a small amount of energy that would otherwise have stayed in the transmission line begins to flow into the antenna, similar to how the fan changes the air current landscape.
- shrubble 3y agoIt depends, if it is considered radiation then it is "landing" on your property; so you have the right to use it, same as the radio frequencies that pass by you are legal to listen in on, such as AM or FM radio...
- advisedwang 3y agoIt isn't the same at a technical level though. AM/FM is "far field" where you are many wavelengths away and are truly emitting radiation. This is "near field" where you are with a wavelength and are coupled with the source. This is actually drawing power.
- jacquesm 3y agoYes.
- thsksbd 3y agoIf you unscramble the tv signal entering your home are you stealing? Also this is taking. This isn't power the gris would have lost anyway, you're coupling it on purpose increasing the leakage
- thsksbd 3y agoTo be clear I don't think unscrambling a TV signal is theft, Im just pointing out that it is a matter of law. The Tv provider didnt loos anything. The grid provider, however, did loose something, namely they have to burn more fossil fuels to overcome the increased resistance on the line.
- Thri4895o 3y agoIt is. Energy drain through induction, depends on conductivity of environment. By putting cables there, you increase energy loss on main line.
- TT-392 3y agoThe same goes if the fence is there and grounded though?
- bradfa 3y agoI believe the intent matters. If you need a fence and you’re not trying to use the electricity then it is not theft. If your intent is to consume the power then it is theft. Doing this kind of power harvesting off transmission lines is a standard Electric Power university course exam question for intro to transmission lines courses.
- 127361 3y agoNo more theft than putting a solar panel under a street light that's shining on your property.
- agsnu 3y agoNot true, either physically or legally.
- 127361 3y agoThe line losses are so huge anyway, this would barely even register. Heck a few large trees close to the power line would drain more energy than this. Considering such a trivial act as "theft" is completely ridiculous.
- speff 3y agoIt’s interesting how confidently they asserted something plain wrong.
- defrost 3y agoA more accurate analogy would be old style overhead drive shafts that powered many machines in large early industrial revolution factories. This is equivilant to throwing an extra belt over the shift to power your own machine. There's only so much power available and as more and more machines are driven there's less and less ommph to power more. This is literally adding "drag" to the overhead power line and decreasing what reaches the end point of transmission. It's not equivilant to scooping up photons that were being thrown on the ground anyway.
- 127361 3y agoIt's not possible to abstract any sizable amount of energy this way, unless the line is kilometers long. It's the scale of the "theft" that matters, which is so trivial compared to the inherent losses in the transmission line.
- idiotsecant 3y ago
- Kab1r 3y agoI love this so much because there's no contact, but because the voltage on the power line is so high, the inductive power is not only measurable, but significant. I have no idea what the legality of stealing power wirelessly (potentially obliviously), but it is undoubtedly cool.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- littlestymaar 3y agoI couldn't find it, but I think French courts have a jurisprudence on this already (unless it's an internal urban legend from EDF, who knows): one day a EDF (French electricity producer) who was living close to a power line built an “antenna” like this to harvest electricity, and he bragged about it. EDF sued, and the defendant claimed that he was just collecting electromagnetic waves that were leaving anyway, but EDF and the experts summoned by the court argued that it wasn't the case and that he was in fact draining power. He was found guilty because he was doing that on purpose, and even if he believed it was doing no harm, he should have checked beforehand especially since he was working in the field he should have been able to know or at least get the information about what was going on if he checked.
- mytailorisrich 3y agoVery likely an offence in some jurisdictions as "abstracting electricity" [1], which is a form of theft. There may be no physical contact but induction still causes energy to be extracted from the line. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstracting_electricity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstracting_electricity
- weinzierl 3y agoDuring the Dot-com bubble, I remember a startup in Germany that placed boxes under high-voltage transmission lines to measure the current and sold that data to analysts. Never heard of them again, so I guess in the long run it was either cheaper to buy that data.
- Thri4895o 3y agoNetwork frequency changes and fluctuates around 50hz. This change is random and unique. It is also captured on video/audio recording as background hum. This data is quite valuable. You can reconstruct exact time (and region) when any video was taken.
- 127361 3y agoThe police keep track of this, and it can be used to validate audio recording evidence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_network_frequency_analysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_network_frequency_a...
- toomuchtodo 3y agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38161677 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38161677 https://datethis.app/ https://datethis.app/
- 7952 3y agoThere is a lot of interest at the moment in monitoring lines. The capacity of a line can change due to things like weather conditions. The capacity is rated based on a conservative set of assumptions. Sensors mean that they could send more power safely. This could help connect more renewable power.
- toomuchtodo 3y agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38983886 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38983886 https://electrek.co/2023/12/07/heimdall-power-meteomatics-grid-capacity-30-percent/ https://electrek.co/2023/12/07/heimdall-power-meteomatics-gr...
- 127361 3y agoPeople on that forum are trying to call this "stealing", which is ridiculous. This involves less that 1 watt of power. The law should not concern itself with trifles. It's more of a health and safety issue than any "theft". They don't seem to get the nuance of the situation and can only see it in terms of black and white and following "the rules". I've personally seen this behavior a lot in the amateur radio community, where people were harassed or threatened for breaking some minor rule. You should see what hooligans in Belarus and Russia get up to, now that is a legitimate problem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4zO2gB70ps https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4zO2gB70ps https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqRT7J86rco https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqRT7J86rco
- ysofunny 3y agopeople think copying files can also be stealing which is even dumber love those crazy russian youtubers, they're always so reckless... they're fun to watch from a safe distance
- matt-attack 3y agoCopying files is absolutely not stealing since it doesn’t remove something from the owner. Stealing is conventional bad not because the thief acquires something, but because the original owner is deprived of something. I’d be pissed if someone stole cash from me even if they burn it. It’s not that they now have my property, it’s that I * no longer have* my property that’s the issue. In the case of piracy, the original owner still has their property. So I’m sorry but “theft” is simply the wrong word. The original owner is not deprived of their data. In the case of the fence however, the original owner is indeed deprived of some modicum of energy. The energy is indeed *taken*, or removed from the original owner. Thus I do consider this “theft”. It’s also true that it’s a trivial amount.
- tomohawk 3y agoIf you attach a load to an electrical line, then you are transferring power from the line for your use. This power is then no longer available for paying customers to use. The load in question here is an inductive load, coupled through the air to the transmission line through well known physical principles. If caught, you could be charged with theft for sure. This is regardless of what people are doing or not doing in Belarus or Russia.
- graphe 3y agoThose fences could be used for electrofarming. https://www.newscientist.com/article/2304360-can-electric-fields-help-plants-grow-new-claims-met-with-caution/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/2304360-can-electric-fi... tl;dr Electricity kills all bugs and insects good and bad, lowering pesticide use. They also increase water evaporation, forcing plants to grow faster.
- WIlliamLove 3y agoSo, what about the electricity affecting something like a cochlear implant, would this be considered an environmental impact for deaf ppl via pollution?
- tomohawk 3y agoAn artist used this effect to create a display of fluorescent light tubes. http://www.infoniac.com/environment/artist-created-network-of-bulbs-that-lit-up-from-power-line-radiation.html http://www.infoniac.com/environment/artist-created-network-o... This exam question is based on a news story about a farmer using a coil of wire to power his farm. https://users.physics.unc.edu/~deardorf/phys25/rwp/exam1rwpsolution.html https://users.physics.unc.edu/~deardorf/phys25/rwp/exam1rwps...
- Simulacra 3y agoThat's so cool! I think it could absolutely be harvested. Of course, the government will probably pass a law or regulation that you can't stand or sit, or have any whatever close to the lines, but for now, I don't see really any reason why you can't do this. It's like any byproduct that is being actively discarded. I want to try this and see if it could charge a battery.
- jokabrink 3y agoA really nice example. I tracked the data acquisition and fit an ordinary charging curve. For anyone interested, a 25 line script w/ data is here: https://pastebin.com/R0b1XSV0 https://pastebin.com/R0b1XSV0 Some insights: - The peak DC voltage seems to be around 1.15 kV. - The time constant is around 440 s. If you were to assume a simple RC-circuit with a constant voltage source (which it probably isnt), you would end at around 100 Ohm for the resistor. - The start of the charging curve is not at the same time as in the video indicating that some voltage was already present from experiments before the video Also, I am pretty sure it is not inductive coupling but capacitive because of several reasons: - It doesn't look like a coax cable but more like an ordinary thick wire. - I am pretty sure he didn't ground the cable at the far end and thus did not create a loop necessary for induction. And if he were, inductive coupling with ground in between would result in a very large voltage drop - If it were inductive: A single loop covering that little area would need way more turns than just one.
- Johnny555 3y agoThey said they collected 36J which is around 0.01 watt-hour, so this is not something you'd be using to power your house. There's stories of farmers building coils to harvest power from powerlines to run their house or barn, but I'd be surprised if they were true unless the coils were built very close to the powerline. https://www.industrytap.com/electromagnetic-harvesters-free-lunch-or-theft/1805 https://www.industrytap.com/electromagnetic-harvesters-free-...
- hermannj314 3y agoCan we create a lora network running along these? You've got free power and almost always line of sight.
- retrac 3y agoWith the right conditions underneath AC power lines, you can light (dimly) a standard fluorescent tube by, literally, grounding one end of it. Gets turned into an art project now and then: https://www.bbc.co.uk/bristol/content/madeinbristol/2004/02/18/field.shtml https://www.bbc.co.uk/bristol/content/madeinbristol/2004/02/... If the current is indeed enough to cause the tube to glow, touching the air-end of the tube with your finger will increase the coupling with the overhead lines (you're salt water - good conductor) and the brightness will increase. Personally, I don't like to walk under HV power lines. I know it's safe. And yet, so very unsettling to think of the sea of power being waded through.
- aaron695 3y ago[dead]
- RecycledEle 3y agoWhile I appreciate anyone experimenting with anything, I will caution that some jurisdictions consider any harvesting of waste energy from power transmissions lines to be a serious crime. I would NOT do this in my hometown.