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> This is similar to "China's manufacturing causes a lot of pollution". No, you, the consumer, cause that pollution. This pretends that China's environmental s

> This is similar to "China's manufacturing causes a lot of pollution". No, you, the consumer, cause that pollution. This pretends that China's environmental standards and oversight are identical to every other countries or that worldwide shipping isn't one of the largest contributors to pollution on the planet. Which we all know is far from the truth. So, no, China actually causes that pollution. The companies in the US who take advantage of China's lax environmental and labor laws to eke out a few points of profit causes that pollution. As a consumer, I require goods to survive and thrive, and I have very little say in how that market functions, and I have zero say when it comes to setting policy. I'm happy to do more, and do as much as I can when possible, but I'm wealthy enough to play this game... most of America is not. I wish HN would punch up nearly as much as it loves to punch down.

rglullis 3y ago
> As a consumer, I require goods to survive and thrive, and I have very little say in how that market functions. You do have a say when/if you are willing to bear the cost of your decisions. If more people were willing to pay up the "manufactured in a place with strict environment and labor regulations" premium, then there wouldn't be so many companies flocking to China. But consumers don't want to do it. They rather save some bucks to buy the stuff they want and hide themselves under "everyone else does it".
- kennyloginz 3y ago
  I think most everyone wants to do it, just the majority of people can’t afford to.
  - rglullis 3y ago
    I don't buy it. The iPhone is one of the most expensive devices and it is not due to a "not made in China" premium. It has close to half of the smartphone market in the US. Homeowners in the US are educated to "buy the most home they can get credit for", not "a home they can pay afford and pay off as quickly as possible." Cars in the US are growing in size. Consumers prefer the (false) safety of SUVs and trucks over the economy and fuel efficiency of smaller vehicles. I could go on. Americans are the richest people in the world, but also the most wasteful and least worried about the consequences of their consumerism.
atleta 3y ago
GP talked about who causes the pollution not where to punch (who to blame). Everybody has a little say in policies, at least in democracies. When you say that most of America is not wealthy enough to play this game then you basically admit this. And this is what is happening: people are not keen on making policies happen if those mean lowering their standard of living. But the thing is that, unfortunately, it is that very standard of living (i.e. consumption) that causes the problem. You can punch up as much as you want, things are not going to change without people lowering their standards. And once we accept it we can easily force politicians to do the right thing. The tragedy of the situation is that everyobody is complicit and most people will not accept that they themselves are. Sure, everybody but them . And I'm not saying this to blame anyone. Blaming doesn't make sense. Identifying the causes and what needs to change does.
darth_avocado 3y ago
> As a consumwr, I require goods to survive and thrive An average person in US or EU consumes far more than what they “need” for survival or thriving. Half the ocean pollution can be directly attributed to the fact that most people want hundreds of pieces of clothing in their wardrobe. Yeah some people have less, but on an average, everyone consumes far more than they need, including the “poor” in these countries. You can’t just absolve yourself from all accountability.

rglullis 3y ago

> As a consumer, I require goods to survive and thrive, and I have very little say in how that market functions. You do have a say when/if you are willing to bear the cost of your decisions. If more people were willing to pay up the "manufactured in a place with strict environment and labor regulations" premium, then there wouldn't be so many companies flocking to China. But consumers don't want to do it. They rather save some bucks to buy the stuff they want and hide themselves under "everyone else does it".

kennyloginz 3y ago
I think most everyone wants to do it, just the majority of people can’t afford to.
- rglullis 3y ago
  I don't buy it. The iPhone is one of the most expensive devices and it is not due to a "not made in China" premium. It has close to half of the smartphone market in the US. Homeowners in the US are educated to "buy the most home they can get credit for", not "a home they can pay afford and pay off as quickly as possible." Cars in the US are growing in size. Consumers prefer the (false) safety of SUVs and trucks over the economy and fuel efficiency of smaller vehicles. I could go on. Americans are the richest people in the world, but also the most wasteful and least worried about the consequences of their consumerism.

atleta 3y ago

GP talked about who causes the pollution not where to punch (who to blame). Everybody has a little say in policies, at least in democracies. When you say that most of America is not wealthy enough to play this game then you basically admit this. And this is what is happening: people are not keen on making policies happen if those mean lowering their standard of living. But the thing is that, unfortunately, it is that very standard of living (i.e. consumption) that causes the problem. You can punch up as much as you want, things are not going to change without people lowering their standards. And once we accept it we can easily force politicians to do the right thing. The tragedy of the situation is that everyobody is complicit and most people will not accept that they themselves are. Sure, everybody but them . And I'm not saying this to blame anyone. Blaming doesn't make sense. Identifying the causes and what needs to change does.

darth_avocado 3y ago

> As a consumwr, I require goods to survive and thrive An average person in US or EU consumes far more than what they “need” for survival or thriving. Half the ocean pollution can be directly attributed to the fact that most people want hundreds of pieces of clothing in their wardrobe. Yeah some people have less, but on an average, everyone consumes far more than they need, including the “poor” in these countries. You can’t just absolve yourself from all accountability.