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When I pay my waste management company to haul away my trash, I do so with the expectation that they'll dispose of it in an environmentally conscious way (as en

When I pay my waste management company to haul away my trash, I do so with the expectation that they'll dispose of it in an environmentally conscious way (as environmentally conscious as dumping it into a big hole in the ground can be). If they can't afford to do methane capture based on what they are charging, then they should charge more. By not including externalized costs like environmental harm, cheap trash, just like cheap gas, leads consumers to use more of the product than if the environmental costs were factored in.

voisin 3y ago
> I do so with the expectation that they'll dispose of it in an environmentally conscious way (as environmentally conscious as dumping it into a big hole in the ground can be) Where does this expectation stem from? We all know they dump it in the ground as you mention but has there ever been a push for regulation to demand methane capture? I’ve never heard of such a push so I can’t imagine why anyone would expect them to have been doing it.
- Johnny555 3y ago
  Regulation - you can't dig a hole in the ground and call yourself a municipal landfill. https://www.epa.gov/landfills https://www.epa.gov/landfills Modern landfills are well-engineered and managed facilities for the disposal of solid waste. They must meet stringent design, operation, and closure requirements established under the Resource Conservation and Recovery Act. I'm not an environmental expert, if Methane emission causes significant environmental harm, then the EPA should be regulating it. It's hard to tell someone that they're harming the environment through methane emissions from trash while the actual environmental experts at the EPA don't bother to regulate it.
  - jMyles 3y ago
    ...this response rings so deeply and reverberating hollow to me. You can't just presume that "regulation" is magically removing the externalities of your consumption, particularly given that the data show so convincingly that regulatory capture is endemic. Of course the state occasionally displays the correct time as a broken clock would, but this is something that requires verification rather than naked presumption.
    - Johnny555 3y ago
      >You can't just presume that "regulation" is magically removing the externalities of your consumption, particularly given that the data show so convincingly that regulatory capture is endemic. It doesn't matter what I presume, it matters what the other 330 million people in this country presume. Telling people to be better conservationists is not going to succeed, externalities need to be priced into products so people can make informed decisions at the time of purchase. Make durable, re-usable, and repairable products the more affordable option.
    - anigbrowl 3y ago
      There isn't time in life to become expert on every last thing, nor is it economically efficient for people to do so. Maybe we would have less regulatory capture if a large chunk of our polity weren't dedicated to the proposition that government is bad and that they should be in charge of it (to show you how bad it is of course, not to line their pockets or anything ha ha why would you even think that). Zero-trust societies are neither desirable nor sustainable. Paranoia is not hte basis of a healthy polity.
      - jMyles 3y ago
        > There isn't time in life to become expert on every last thing, nor is it economically efficient for people to do so. One needn't be an expert to open the Seafood Watch app and check if the fish they're about to buy is contributing to ocean degradation. Or learn about local municipal waste management practices. Or adopt personal habits consistent with antimicrobial stewardship. And so on and so on. ...but to your deeper point: the information age _does_ beckon us to be our best generalist selves. It's now possible to scale up to very significant levels of understanding on topics which underpin social and economic policy in timeframes needed to meaningfully participate in debate. I'm concerned we have over-corrected for dunning kruger effects in some areas, especially if our chief guardrail against release of greenhouse gases is the presumption that the EPA is ensuring form afar that your local dump is up to snuff.
    - defrost 3y ago
      You shouldn't just presume that "regulation" is magically <doing whatever>. You should (as the citizen body politic) bake into your system of governance the means by which to independantly third party check the execution of policy carried out by the civil service and sub contractors. You should also have the means to fire elected officials for corruption, failure to follow oaths of office, etc. and to similarly examine the integrity of civil servents and sub contractors. This is all common sense, one hopes, for any G20 Government, ideally all governments. None of which negates the need to regulate landfill to prevent ground water contamination and greenhouse outgassing. Is your issue the regulation or that you are unable to access third party reports that verify regulated work was carried out as intended?
hunter-gatherer 3y ago
> When I pay my waste management company to haul away my trash, I do so with the expectation that they'll dispose of it in an environmentally conscious way (as environmentally conscious as dumping it into a big hole in the ground can be). Lol what??? Have you never seen how the cookie is made and discarded? It amazes me how so many people on this VC-sponsored forum hold such environment conscious expectations. Many of you are in a strange state of mind about the true cost of things. Nothing is made cheaper in consumption; costs are just offloaded to nature. FWIW: I grew up close to a copper mine, and currently live about 2 miles from a landfill (as the crow flies).
- Johnny555 3y ago
  >Have you never seen how the cookie is made and discarded? I can't speak for your state, but in my state the cookie isn't discarded in a landfill, it goes to composting facility.
  - speed_spread 3y ago
    I live in a province where the cookie is picked up by the compost truck and taken to the landfill because both the composting facility and landfill are run by the Mafia and one costs less to operate than the other.

voisin 3y ago

> I do so with the expectation that they'll dispose of it in an environmentally conscious way (as environmentally conscious as dumping it into a big hole in the ground can be) Where does this expectation stem from? We all know they dump it in the ground as you mention but has there ever been a push for regulation to demand methane capture? I’ve never heard of such a push so I can’t imagine why anyone would expect them to have been doing it.

Johnny555 3y ago
Regulation - you can't dig a hole in the ground and call yourself a municipal landfill. https://www.epa.gov/landfills https://www.epa.gov/landfills Modern landfills are well-engineered and managed facilities for the disposal of solid waste. They must meet stringent design, operation, and closure requirements established under the Resource Conservation and Recovery Act. I'm not an environmental expert, if Methane emission causes significant environmental harm, then the EPA should be regulating it. It's hard to tell someone that they're harming the environment through methane emissions from trash while the actual environmental experts at the EPA don't bother to regulate it.
- jMyles 3y ago
  ...this response rings so deeply and reverberating hollow to me. You can't just presume that "regulation" is magically removing the externalities of your consumption, particularly given that the data show so convincingly that regulatory capture is endemic. Of course the state occasionally displays the correct time as a broken clock would, but this is something that requires verification rather than naked presumption.
  - Johnny555 3y ago
    >You can't just presume that "regulation" is magically removing the externalities of your consumption, particularly given that the data show so convincingly that regulatory capture is endemic. It doesn't matter what I presume, it matters what the other 330 million people in this country presume. Telling people to be better conservationists is not going to succeed, externalities need to be priced into products so people can make informed decisions at the time of purchase. Make durable, re-usable, and repairable products the more affordable option.
  - anigbrowl 3y ago
    There isn't time in life to become expert on every last thing, nor is it economically efficient for people to do so. Maybe we would have less regulatory capture if a large chunk of our polity weren't dedicated to the proposition that government is bad and that they should be in charge of it (to show you how bad it is of course, not to line their pockets or anything ha ha why would you even think that). Zero-trust societies are neither desirable nor sustainable. Paranoia is not hte basis of a healthy polity.
    - jMyles 3y ago
      > There isn't time in life to become expert on every last thing, nor is it economically efficient for people to do so. One needn't be an expert to open the Seafood Watch app and check if the fish they're about to buy is contributing to ocean degradation. Or learn about local municipal waste management practices. Or adopt personal habits consistent with antimicrobial stewardship. And so on and so on. ...but to your deeper point: the information age _does_ beckon us to be our best generalist selves. It's now possible to scale up to very significant levels of understanding on topics which underpin social and economic policy in timeframes needed to meaningfully participate in debate. I'm concerned we have over-corrected for dunning kruger effects in some areas, especially if our chief guardrail against release of greenhouse gases is the presumption that the EPA is ensuring form afar that your local dump is up to snuff.
  - defrost 3y ago
    You shouldn't just presume that "regulation" is magically <doing whatever>. You should (as the citizen body politic) bake into your system of governance the means by which to independantly third party check the execution of policy carried out by the civil service and sub contractors. You should also have the means to fire elected officials for corruption, failure to follow oaths of office, etc. and to similarly examine the integrity of civil servents and sub contractors. This is all common sense, one hopes, for any G20 Government, ideally all governments. None of which negates the need to regulate landfill to prevent ground water contamination and greenhouse outgassing. Is your issue the regulation or that you are unable to access third party reports that verify regulated work was carried out as intended?

hunter-gatherer 3y ago

> When I pay my waste management company to haul away my trash, I do so with the expectation that they'll dispose of it in an environmentally conscious way (as environmentally conscious as dumping it into a big hole in the ground can be). Lol what??? Have you never seen how the cookie is made and discarded? It amazes me how so many people on this VC-sponsored forum hold such environment conscious expectations. Many of you are in a strange state of mind about the true cost of things. Nothing is made cheaper in consumption; costs are just offloaded to nature. FWIW: I grew up close to a copper mine, and currently live about 2 miles from a landfill (as the crow flies).

Johnny555 3y ago
>Have you never seen how the cookie is made and discarded? I can't speak for your state, but in my state the cookie isn't discarded in a landfill, it goes to composting facility.
- speed_spread 3y ago
  I live in a province where the cookie is picked up by the compost truck and taken to the landfill because both the composting facility and landfill are run by the Mafia and one costs less to operate than the other.