5 ms·

The simplest thing is air resistance / drag — you can feel yourself moving through air (or any other fluid.) But a sufficiently-clever mechanical VR system cou

by derefr 3y ago

The simplest thing is air resistance / drag — you can feel yourself moving through air (or any other fluid.) But a sufficiently-clever mechanical VR system could blow air at you as you move, so let's ignore that one. Your inner ear is literally an accelerometer. When you accelerate (or rotate your body around relative to a gravitational pull), the liquid in your cochlea sloshes around, and the hairs in it (which aren't just on the bottom surface, but all around the sides and top as well) feel the liquid as it passes by them and build an image of your position and acceleration in space. (It's oddly similar to how the wires in an old-school mercury tilt-switch accelerometer interpret the mercury sloshing around. Just with a lot more pairs of wires!) Also, you've got an interoceptive sense: your organs are somewhat free to move inside your body; and so, as you experience g-forces, your internal organs continue to move a bit after your body is stopped — and you experience this relative displacement of your organs as a familiar and intuitive "lurching" sensation. When your inner-ear accelerometer signal fails to cohere with your overall computed sense of motion, you get the feverish-dizzy, lacking-air, mentally-induced-nausea feeling of carsickness. When your interoceptive signal fails to cohere with your overall computed sense of motion, you get the bad kind of "lurching sensation" — which, if it happens enough times, causes a unique kind of acute "body load" nausea purely localized within the gut (something common among riders of rollercoasters with negative-g-force moments.)

nickthegreek 3y ago
I almost always put a fan on me in in VR. It helps keep me cool and I use it to know which direction I’m facing.
- chungus 3y ago
  +1, honestly essential. Allows me to go for hours playing Jet Island
crazygringo 3y ago
So here's the first thing I thought of: remember those "spaceship" amusement park rides that sat about a dozen people, with the space adventure playing on the front "window", and it tilted front/back and side/side to simulate the effects of acceleration and deceleration. And I don't think there's any way of actually telling whether you're accelerating or tilting, as long as you keep the forces within a certain limited range? Which immediately makes me wonder -- what if you put this HoloTile floor on top of a platform that can tilt on both axes? What if the moment it starts to detect you walking forwards, it tilts "uphill" in the direction you're walking? When you suddenly stop walking, it tilts backwards slightly for a split second, then resets to level. Because this actually matches what our body experiences on a sidewalk -- when we walk forwards we actually tilt our body slightly forwards as we accelerate, and tilt it backwards briefly to stop. (Same as a Segway does, if that's easier to picture.) So if the floor tilts... would that be good enough to complete the illusion, and send the right signals to the inner ear? Because the liquid in your cochlea is now sloshing around in the right way? The interoception is matching as well?
- starkparker 3y ago
  This is what I'm thinking, yeah. This is Disney, perspective and momentum tricks like this are decades old and pretty well refined by this point. If holotile works out it just gives them another dimension to layer onto the existing tricks to make small linear spaces look and feel just enough like they're large and non-linear to shuffle people through an attraction.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- PoignardAzur 3y ago
  I don't think that would work, your inner ear would still detect the absence of movement. The part that makes Star Tour work is that your entire body is moved around when the ship is tilted (because you're strapped to your seat). That wouldn't work with a tilting floor, I think.
Balgair 3y ago
Nit picks from former vestibular researcher : > the liquid in your cochlea sloshes around The vestibules are not the cochlea. The cochlea is responsible for sound. The vestibules are just about the sensation of movement, the structures are called Semicircular canals. You have one is each axis of rotation, more or less (x-y-z) > feel the liquid as it passes by them The hair cells are embedded in a crystal matrix, the otolith. The inertia of the 'heavy' crystal pulls the hair cells (which only look like hair and are not actually hair) and that sends a signal to the brain. Not the liquid. The Spins from drunkenness are due to the change in the density of the liquid in the vestibules (from the additional alcohol) causing a different buoyancy of the otoliths and thereby making the hair cells change resting position. > build an image of your position and acceleration Only the acceleration, not the position. You can only feel, via these organs, the 2nd derivative of position (0th derivative - position, 1st derivative - velocity, 2nd derivative - acceleration) > When your inner-ear accelerometer signal fails to cohere with your overall computed sense of motion, you get the feverish-dizzy, lacking-air, mentally-induced-nausea feeling of carsickness. This feeling is very unique to people and their lived experiences. Seasickness will subside for most people, and sailors/figure skaters/ballerinas/skateboarders/etc generally have a higher tolerance to motion sickness. Overall, very good overview! Thank you!
- eddyg 3y ago
  Thank you for taking the time to reply! Comments like yours are why I enjoy reading (and learning from!) HN.
- derefr 3y ago
  Glad to be corrected re: the composition of the vestibules! I've not only tried to read up on the topic, but also had chronic labyrinthitis and had a doctor try to explain what was happening there — and in neither case was the explanation anywhere near enlightening as the one you just gave :) > You can only feel, via these organs, the 2nd derivative of position (0th derivative - position, 1st derivative - velocity, 2nd derivative - acceleration) Well, sure, but the thing that I meant by "builds a picture" isn't just what you're feeling (which, indeed, is acceleration, not position), but also the information the brain has available to predict with. IIRC, I've read about "hardwired neural logic" (i.e. a brain function outside of our conscious awareness that we have from birth) for flow-state obstacle avoidance in known environments, which involves the brain doing internal dead reckoning based on integrating over its acceleration-picture of the body — thus allowing a person to e.g. make their way home through a forest they've walked through a million times, with their eyes closed, yet stepping over tree roots at just the right time. Dead reckoning over an integration of the acceleration-picture also seems to come into play with proprioception. Thus why people who are given a local nerve block in an arm, might end up smacking themselves in the face with said arm when trying to e.g. adjust their glasses. They're missing the feedback signals† from the arm that would allow them to compute the acceleration of the arm, and therefore the moment-to-moment position of the arm. --- † I'd love to know how the brain figures out what the acceleration forces being applied to the extremities are. I'm guessing you'd probably be almost the right person to know the answer to that question! (The perfect person would be one of those "prosthetic arm you can feel" researchers.) I know the brain is getting signals back from the muscles in the extremity — how flexed they are, how much work they're having to do to keep in position — and that's probably a majority of the information needed... presuming you are flexing the muscle. But we still know where our limbs are in space even when we have them "loose." So there's likely an additional component — the one that allows people without numbness in their extremities, to avoid being smacked in the face by their own hand when someone picks their arm up and drops it above their face while they're asleep. My naive guess for what that data source could be: pressure on blood vessels. As you move the extremity, the blood drags behind the limb, and so some blood vessels feel an temporary increase in pressure, and others a temporary decrease in pressure. The brain then takes the derivative of the blood pressure data; builds a map of blood pressure deltas; and then "recognizes", in each extremity's picture, the accelerations upon the extremity.
hhjinks 3y ago
How much does the inner ear accelerate horizontally when you're already moving, though? After you're moving at a set pace, wouldn't almost all the acceleration be up or down, depending on how much "bounce" there is in your gait?
InSteady 3y ago
>When your interoceptive signal fails to cohere with your overall computed sense of motion, you get the bad kind of "lurching sensation" — which, if it happens enough times, causes a unique kind of acute "body load" nausea purely localized within the gut Something like this would happen to me sometimes when I was intoxicated on alcohol and cannabis together (getting crunk, the kids used to say). After achieving a substantial buzz, if I closed my eyes and leaned back deeply in a chair or lay down on my back, I could get this vivid sensation of falling rapidly. Just like going down a steep rollercoaster. As long as I stayed in the sweet spot intoxication-wise, it was a thrilling and pleasurable sensation. From what I recall, after a few brief moments of exhilaration (that I could maybe relax and focus into in order to prolong), a subconscious awareness that I'm not actually moving takes over, which turns the sensation into pure nausea. Right in the pit of my stomach, like you describe. Sometimes if the nausea passed quickly enough I could open my eyes and sit up, re-center myself, and then induce the effect again. Anyway, kind of relevant in a weird way. The things we do for cheap thrills... And on that note, I could see potential for some people to get acclimated to this effect of the technology and actually enjoy it as part of the experience.
saiya-jin 3y ago
Try running on a treadmill. Very surreal experience at first, not much common with regular running, every sensory cell screaming WTF this is weird and I felt like some cartoon characters when they 'power up' for running. What you can and should do is to tilt it a bit just to make it more like running, but its still far from regular experience. You body knows, and trust me its not 1 or 2 things that are out of place, its everything. You can and will get used to it, but never ever it will feel like regular running.

by derefr 3y ago

nickthegreek 3y ago

I almost always put a fan on me in in VR. It helps keep me cool and I use it to know which direction I’m facing.

chungus 3y ago
+1, honestly essential. Allows me to go for hours playing Jet Island

crazygringo 3y ago

So here's the first thing I thought of: remember those "spaceship" amusement park rides that sat about a dozen people, with the space adventure playing on the front "window", and it tilted front/back and side/side to simulate the effects of acceleration and deceleration. And I don't think there's any way of actually telling whether you're accelerating or tilting, as long as you keep the forces within a certain limited range? Which immediately makes me wonder -- what if you put this HoloTile floor on top of a platform that can tilt on both axes? What if the moment it starts to detect you walking forwards, it tilts "uphill" in the direction you're walking? When you suddenly stop walking, it tilts backwards slightly for a split second, then resets to level. Because this actually matches what our body experiences on a sidewalk -- when we walk forwards we actually tilt our body slightly forwards as we accelerate, and tilt it backwards briefly to stop. (Same as a Segway does, if that's easier to picture.) So if the floor tilts... would that be good enough to complete the illusion, and send the right signals to the inner ear? Because the liquid in your cochlea is now sloshing around in the right way? The interoception is matching as well?

starkparker 3y ago
This is what I'm thinking, yeah. This is Disney, perspective and momentum tricks like this are decades old and pretty well refined by this point. If holotile works out it just gives them another dimension to layer onto the existing tricks to make small linear spaces look and feel just enough like they're large and non-linear to shuffle people through an attraction.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
PoignardAzur 3y ago
I don't think that would work, your inner ear would still detect the absence of movement. The part that makes Star Tour work is that your entire body is moved around when the ship is tilted (because you're strapped to your seat). That wouldn't work with a tilting floor, I think.

Balgair 3y ago

Nit picks from former vestibular researcher : > the liquid in your cochlea sloshes around The vestibules are not the cochlea. The cochlea is responsible for sound. The vestibules are just about the sensation of movement, the structures are called Semicircular canals. You have one is each axis of rotation, more or less (x-y-z) > feel the liquid as it passes by them The hair cells are embedded in a crystal matrix, the otolith. The inertia of the 'heavy' crystal pulls the hair cells (which only look like hair and are not actually hair) and that sends a signal to the brain. Not the liquid. The Spins from drunkenness are due to the change in the density of the liquid in the vestibules (from the additional alcohol) causing a different buoyancy of the otoliths and thereby making the hair cells change resting position. > build an image of your position and acceleration Only the acceleration, not the position. You can only feel, via these organs, the 2nd derivative of position (0th derivative - position, 1st derivative - velocity, 2nd derivative - acceleration) > When your inner-ear accelerometer signal fails to cohere with your overall computed sense of motion, you get the feverish-dizzy, lacking-air, mentally-induced-nausea feeling of carsickness. This feeling is very unique to people and their lived experiences. Seasickness will subside for most people, and sailors/figure skaters/ballerinas/skateboarders/etc generally have a higher tolerance to motion sickness. Overall, very good overview! Thank you!

eddyg 3y ago
Thank you for taking the time to reply! Comments like yours are why I enjoy reading (and learning from!) HN.
derefr 3y ago
Glad to be corrected re: the composition of the vestibules! I've not only tried to read up on the topic, but also had chronic labyrinthitis and had a doctor try to explain what was happening there — and in neither case was the explanation anywhere near enlightening as the one you just gave :) > You can only feel, via these organs, the 2nd derivative of position (0th derivative - position, 1st derivative - velocity, 2nd derivative - acceleration) Well, sure, but the thing that I meant by "builds a picture" isn't just what you're feeling (which, indeed, is acceleration, not position), but also the information the brain has available to predict with. IIRC, I've read about "hardwired neural logic" (i.e. a brain function outside of our conscious awareness that we have from birth) for flow-state obstacle avoidance in known environments, which involves the brain doing internal dead reckoning based on integrating over its acceleration-picture of the body — thus allowing a person to e.g. make their way home through a forest they've walked through a million times, with their eyes closed, yet stepping over tree roots at just the right time. Dead reckoning over an integration of the acceleration-picture also seems to come into play with proprioception. Thus why people who are given a local nerve block in an arm, might end up smacking themselves in the face with said arm when trying to e.g. adjust their glasses. They're missing the feedback signals† from the arm that would allow them to compute the acceleration of the arm, and therefore the moment-to-moment position of the arm. --- † I'd love to know how the brain figures out what the acceleration forces being applied to the extremities are. I'm guessing you'd probably be almost the right person to know the answer to that question! (The perfect person would be one of those "prosthetic arm you can feel" researchers.) I know the brain is getting signals back from the muscles in the extremity — how flexed they are, how much work they're having to do to keep in position — and that's probably a majority of the information needed... presuming you are flexing the muscle. But we still know where our limbs are in space even when we have them "loose." So there's likely an additional component — the one that allows people without numbness in their extremities, to avoid being smacked in the face by their own hand when someone picks their arm up and drops it above their face while they're asleep. My naive guess for what that data source could be: pressure on blood vessels. As you move the extremity, the blood drags behind the limb, and so some blood vessels feel an temporary increase in pressure, and others a temporary decrease in pressure. The brain then takes the derivative of the blood pressure data; builds a map of blood pressure deltas; and then "recognizes", in each extremity's picture, the accelerations upon the extremity.

hhjinks 3y ago

How much does the inner ear accelerate horizontally when you're already moving, though? After you're moving at a set pace, wouldn't almost all the acceleration be up or down, depending on how much "bounce" there is in your gait?

InSteady 3y ago

>When your interoceptive signal fails to cohere with your overall computed sense of motion, you get the bad kind of "lurching sensation" — which, if it happens enough times, causes a unique kind of acute "body load" nausea purely localized within the gut Something like this would happen to me sometimes when I was intoxicated on alcohol and cannabis together (getting crunk, the kids used to say). After achieving a substantial buzz, if I closed my eyes and leaned back deeply in a chair or lay down on my back, I could get this vivid sensation of falling rapidly. Just like going down a steep rollercoaster. As long as I stayed in the sweet spot intoxication-wise, it was a thrilling and pleasurable sensation. From what I recall, after a few brief moments of exhilaration (that I could maybe relax and focus into in order to prolong), a subconscious awareness that I'm not actually moving takes over, which turns the sensation into pure nausea. Right in the pit of my stomach, like you describe. Sometimes if the nausea passed quickly enough I could open my eyes and sit up, re-center myself, and then induce the effect again. Anyway, kind of relevant in a weird way. The things we do for cheap thrills... And on that note, I could see potential for some people to get acclimated to this effect of the technology and actually enjoy it as part of the experience.

saiya-jin 3y ago

Try running on a treadmill. Very surreal experience at first, not much common with regular running, every sensory cell screaming WTF this is weird and I felt like some cartoon characters when they 'power up' for running. What you can and should do is to tilt it a bit just to make it more like running, but its still far from regular experience. You body knows, and trust me its not 1 or 2 things that are out of place, its everything. You can and will get used to it, but never ever it will feel like regular running.