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“They’re some of the same people that have been working behind the scenes with Congress to write legislation,” Kirkpatrick told the In the Room With Peter Berge

“They’re some of the same people that have been working behind the scenes with Congress to write legislation,” Kirkpatrick told the In the Room With Peter Bergen podcast. >> Isn't this a conspiracy theory ?

jerf 3y ago
There is no non-"conspiracy theory" option anymore. Either the aliens are real in some manner and there has been a massive cover-up conspiracy, or they are not, and there has been a pretty significant conspiracy to fake evidence and support for aliens existing. Either way, there is no "everyone's generally nice and is just trying to tell the public the truth and nobody would ever dream of deploying deception as a part of their strategy" that the non-conspiracy theory option seems to entail. A lot of people are lying and at least some of them absolutely know they are.
- thfuran 3y ago
  How can you lie without knowing you are?
  - jerf 3y ago
    Depends on whether you consider someone relaying lies that they believe to be the truth a liar. In plain English usage most people use both senses of that pretty freely.
- jvanderbot 3y ago
  > A lot of people are lying and at least some of them absolutely know they are. You're right. Just a frustrating observation though: It is almost never the case that someone willfully lies, knowing they are fabricating everything. They may lie right now believing it will lead to the truth, or they may lie about their motivations in order to get closer to the truth, etc. The "core group" TFA discusses almost certainly have been lying. But I bet they do believe they are getting closer to the truth, celebrate the wasted money as "progress and publicity" and I bet they don't believe they are lying outright. I bet they think the ends justify the means. Unfortunately, nobody believes they are illogical, evil, or malicious. They are only by definition of opposing what someone else (or everyone else) feels is logical, good, or right.
  - voakbasda 3y ago
    I have met many people who pursue what I call “willful ignorance”. Such people refuse to accept new information that might change their beliefs. Even if they might appear to listen, anything that contradicts their world view will be discarded. I would say such people are willfully lying when they promulgate theories that either lack any hard evidence or can be easily disproven. I think this includes a large number of politicians, judges, lawyers, lobbyists, bureaucrats, and anyone else whose livelihood depends on those lies. And that shit is evil.
    - jvanderbot 3y ago
      There was a post on HN about this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38968619 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38968619 Essentially, they aren't lying. In fact, they're responding rationally because: 1. Anyone can construct a logical sequence of arguments (see: Everyone thinks they are logical) 2. Blindly accepting logical sequence of arguments will get you a lot of incorrect results 3. Therefore, being initially skeptical of even logical-seeming things that contradict what you "know" is rational. "Words? Anyone can say anything with those - why should I believe those?"
      - voakbasda 3y ago
        There is a big difference between "humble ignorance" based in genuine willingness to learn and "willful ignorance" based in the unwillingness to change established views even after logically dismantling their beliefs or being shown mountains of contradictory evidence. Those latter people are lying liars, no matter how you try to rationalize it.
deleted 3y ago
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jerf 3y ago

There is no non-"conspiracy theory" option anymore. Either the aliens are real in some manner and there has been a massive cover-up conspiracy, or they are not, and there has been a pretty significant conspiracy to fake evidence and support for aliens existing. Either way, there is no "everyone's generally nice and is just trying to tell the public the truth and nobody would ever dream of deploying deception as a part of their strategy" that the non-conspiracy theory option seems to entail. A lot of people are lying and at least some of them absolutely know they are.

thfuran 3y ago
How can you lie without knowing you are?
- jerf 3y ago
  Depends on whether you consider someone relaying lies that they believe to be the truth a liar. In plain English usage most people use both senses of that pretty freely.
jvanderbot 3y ago
> A lot of people are lying and at least some of them absolutely know they are. You're right. Just a frustrating observation though: It is almost never the case that someone willfully lies, knowing they are fabricating everything. They may lie right now believing it will lead to the truth, or they may lie about their motivations in order to get closer to the truth, etc. The "core group" TFA discusses almost certainly have been lying. But I bet they do believe they are getting closer to the truth, celebrate the wasted money as "progress and publicity" and I bet they don't believe they are lying outright. I bet they think the ends justify the means. Unfortunately, nobody believes they are illogical, evil, or malicious. They are only by definition of opposing what someone else (or everyone else) feels is logical, good, or right.
- voakbasda 3y ago
  I have met many people who pursue what I call “willful ignorance”. Such people refuse to accept new information that might change their beliefs. Even if they might appear to listen, anything that contradicts their world view will be discarded. I would say such people are willfully lying when they promulgate theories that either lack any hard evidence or can be easily disproven. I think this includes a large number of politicians, judges, lawyers, lobbyists, bureaucrats, and anyone else whose livelihood depends on those lies. And that shit is evil.
  - jvanderbot 3y ago
    There was a post on HN about this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38968619 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38968619 Essentially, they aren't lying. In fact, they're responding rationally because: 1. Anyone can construct a logical sequence of arguments (see: Everyone thinks they are logical) 2. Blindly accepting logical sequence of arguments will get you a lot of incorrect results 3. Therefore, being initially skeptical of even logical-seeming things that contradict what you "know" is rational. "Words? Anyone can say anything with those - why should I believe those?"
    - voakbasda 3y ago
      There is a big difference between "humble ignorance" based in genuine willingness to learn and "willful ignorance" based in the unwillingness to change established views even after logically dismantling their beliefs or being shown mountains of contradictory evidence. Those latter people are lying liars, no matter how you try to rationalize it.

deleted 3y ago

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