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> If Apple abuses its power, there are plenty of alternatives that customers can switch to This is just not how the 3 party markets work. For there to be mobil

> If Apple abuses its power, there are plenty of alternatives that customers can switch to This is just not how the 3 party markets work. For there to be mobility, both the users and developers have to move. Good luck convincing users to move of their $1000+ purchase. Maybe developers should start a union and boycott the app stores

qeternity 3y ago
I don't follow: if third party developers only build for iOS, that is Apple's fault? If Walmart doesn't carry Target products, I either buy a substitute or I shop at both stores.
- ephemeral-life 3y ago
  To apple, there are 2 customers. Device owners and developers. If device owners choose to buy ios, developers are forced to build for ios. There is no "just don't buy from apple" from the developers pov. A quick google says there are about 1.4 billion iphones. It is unrealistic to expect developers to just "not choose apple" on such a large market. Thus the digital markets act. Walmart doesn't own the distribution channel of a platform with a double digit percentage of the world population on it.
  - qeternity 3y ago
    None of this is illegal. Walmart is absolutely make or break for a huge number of companies. Being big and powerful isn’t a crime. > unrealistic to expect That’s true, but it changes nothing. Developers absolutely do not have to develop for iOS. That would still leave 75% of the market. It is not a monopoly. If the iPhone market is too lucrative to ignore, that’s not a competition issue. In fact it’s more supportive that Apple’s approach is pretty valuable to a lot of valuable people that developers want to sell to.
    - smoldesu 3y ago
      > Developers absolutely do not have to develop for iOS. Europe absolutely does not have to sell iPhones.
      - qeternity 3y ago
        Oh right sure, the millions of people who buy iPhones in Europe every year can pound sand. The bureaucrats know better.
        smoldesu 3y ago
        They threatened doing it before: > It was rumored in February that Apple may be planning to limit charging speeds and other functionality of USB-C cables that are not certified under its "Made for iPhone" program. […] In response to this rumor, European Commissioner Thierry Breton has sent Apple a letter warning the company that limiting the functionality of USB-C cables would not be permitted and would prevent iPhones from being sold in the EU when the law goes into effect. https://www.macrumors.com/2023/05/04/eu-warns-apple-about-limiting-usb-c-iphone-cables/ https://www.macrumors.com/2023/05/04/eu-warns-apple-about-li... > The bureaucrats know better. Than the corporations? Yes.
- smoldesu 3y ago
  So, what's the substitute for native apps or third-party browser engines? A webapp? This exact line of logic is why we have arrived at legislation like the Digital Market Act. Apple goes out of their way to ensure reasonable substitutes don't exist, by controlling their own IP but also ruthlessly C&Ding reverse engineers, fan projects and security researchers. They operate an end-to-end plot that protects their bottom line, and certain jurisdictions should have the right to deny that behavior in their market.
  - qeternity 3y ago
    You’re skipping over the crux of my point: it’s Apple’s platform. They don’t have a monopoly, so why should you or I have any say in what they do? There are plenty of alternatives. You and many other people saying the same things are ignoring the benefits of their walled garden. You might disagree and that’s fine. Vote with your wallet, not with regulation.
    - smoldesu 3y ago
      It's Europe's market. They don't run the world, so why should Apple object to their standards? There are plenty of alternatives. You and many other people saying the same things are ignoring the benefits of international business. You might disagree and that’s fine. Get out and vote, don't assume the market is right any more than it was with Sackler or Shkreli.
    - jc_dc 3y ago
      A Walmart customer doesn’t invest $1100 for the pleasure to walk through their front door so they also shop at target, Amazon and direct. There is no way to deliver native software to a users iPhone without the App Store…that’s the problem. The judge cited switching cost in the epic v Google case and I slow clapped him by myself in my office like a weirdo…I was just so excited that the judicial system was picking up on where the control lies. And by the way, we can go to google who use scare tactics for sideloading even when we are doing everything right. Last I checked, you could only turn sideloading on or off…you should be able to whitelist sites like chrome does or support code signing like windows does. In part, you’re right. It’s their product and they made the phone, but make no mistake, devs made it successful! We have been moving away from native apps because the hassle just ain’t worth it. We have more control over our own destiny on the web so that’s where we are investing time. I’ve been saying for years that Apple will regret treating us with such distain in the long run, and here we are where car makers don’t want their software, and devs are saying thanks but no thanks on their headset. If enough devs move to pwa’s, that’s the ball game. May as well bring back the Firefox OS. Here’s the thing that really bothers me about iOS. I’m forced to distribute through an App Store that doesn’t understand how to upgrade orgs, not individuals, doesn’t understand that org subscriptions don’t belong on an individuals Apple account, will deny updates even when you are completely compliant, sell ads on direct searches of our trademarked name…AND, we get borderline zero organic search traffic from App Store because it’s just not where our customers are looking for a solution. So, we spend money to send them to the iOS App Store!!! Not the other way around. With Mac, we quickly ditched the App Store and self distributed cause app review was such a pain. With windows, which is much bigger than Mac for us, we self distribute with code signing. And…if that’s not bad enough, we want to be able to deploy updates immediately when necessary. This is mission critical software for these businesses. Thankfully, we can roll out on desktop immediately but on phones, there was one time a couple years ago where we had to deny all Android access for 48 hours cause there was a bad bug over a public holiday weekend. So now, we won’t update the app around holidays. I will say, app review has gotten better over the years and most of ours go theough within 30 mins these days but every now and again it’ll take a couple days which keeps that spectre in the back of your mind.

qeternity 3y ago

I don't follow: if third party developers only build for iOS, that is Apple's fault? If Walmart doesn't carry Target products, I either buy a substitute or I shop at both stores.

ephemeral-life 3y ago
To apple, there are 2 customers. Device owners and developers. If device owners choose to buy ios, developers are forced to build for ios. There is no "just don't buy from apple" from the developers pov. A quick google says there are about 1.4 billion iphones. It is unrealistic to expect developers to just "not choose apple" on such a large market. Thus the digital markets act. Walmart doesn't own the distribution channel of a platform with a double digit percentage of the world population on it.
- qeternity 3y ago
  None of this is illegal. Walmart is absolutely make or break for a huge number of companies. Being big and powerful isn’t a crime. > unrealistic to expect That’s true, but it changes nothing. Developers absolutely do not have to develop for iOS. That would still leave 75% of the market. It is not a monopoly. If the iPhone market is too lucrative to ignore, that’s not a competition issue. In fact it’s more supportive that Apple’s approach is pretty valuable to a lot of valuable people that developers want to sell to.
  - smoldesu 3y ago
    > Developers absolutely do not have to develop for iOS. Europe absolutely does not have to sell iPhones.
    - qeternity 3y ago
      Oh right sure, the millions of people who buy iPhones in Europe every year can pound sand. The bureaucrats know better.
      - smoldesu 3y ago
        They threatened doing it before: > It was rumored in February that Apple may be planning to limit charging speeds and other functionality of USB-C cables that are not certified under its "Made for iPhone" program. […] In response to this rumor, European Commissioner Thierry Breton has sent Apple a letter warning the company that limiting the functionality of USB-C cables would not be permitted and would prevent iPhones from being sold in the EU when the law goes into effect. https://www.macrumors.com/2023/05/04/eu-warns-apple-about-limiting-usb-c-iphone-cables/ https://www.macrumors.com/2023/05/04/eu-warns-apple-about-li... > The bureaucrats know better. Than the corporations? Yes.
smoldesu 3y ago
So, what's the substitute for native apps or third-party browser engines? A webapp? This exact line of logic is why we have arrived at legislation like the Digital Market Act. Apple goes out of their way to ensure reasonable substitutes don't exist, by controlling their own IP but also ruthlessly C&Ding reverse engineers, fan projects and security researchers. They operate an end-to-end plot that protects their bottom line, and certain jurisdictions should have the right to deny that behavior in their market.
- qeternity 3y ago
  You’re skipping over the crux of my point: it’s Apple’s platform. They don’t have a monopoly, so why should you or I have any say in what they do? There are plenty of alternatives. You and many other people saying the same things are ignoring the benefits of their walled garden. You might disagree and that’s fine. Vote with your wallet, not with regulation.
  - smoldesu 3y ago
    It's Europe's market. They don't run the world, so why should Apple object to their standards? There are plenty of alternatives. You and many other people saying the same things are ignoring the benefits of international business. You might disagree and that’s fine. Get out and vote, don't assume the market is right any more than it was with Sackler or Shkreli.
  - jc_dc 3y ago
    A Walmart customer doesn’t invest $1100 for the pleasure to walk through their front door so they also shop at target, Amazon and direct. There is no way to deliver native software to a users iPhone without the App Store…that’s the problem. The judge cited switching cost in the epic v Google case and I slow clapped him by myself in my office like a weirdo…I was just so excited that the judicial system was picking up on where the control lies. And by the way, we can go to google who use scare tactics for sideloading even when we are doing everything right. Last I checked, you could only turn sideloading on or off…you should be able to whitelist sites like chrome does or support code signing like windows does. In part, you’re right. It’s their product and they made the phone, but make no mistake, devs made it successful! We have been moving away from native apps because the hassle just ain’t worth it. We have more control over our own destiny on the web so that’s where we are investing time. I’ve been saying for years that Apple will regret treating us with such distain in the long run, and here we are where car makers don’t want their software, and devs are saying thanks but no thanks on their headset. If enough devs move to pwa’s, that’s the ball game. May as well bring back the Firefox OS. Here’s the thing that really bothers me about iOS. I’m forced to distribute through an App Store that doesn’t understand how to upgrade orgs, not individuals, doesn’t understand that org subscriptions don’t belong on an individuals Apple account, will deny updates even when you are completely compliant, sell ads on direct searches of our trademarked name…AND, we get borderline zero organic search traffic from App Store because it’s just not where our customers are looking for a solution. So, we spend money to send them to the iOS App Store!!! Not the other way around. With Mac, we quickly ditched the App Store and self distributed cause app review was such a pain. With windows, which is much bigger than Mac for us, we self distribute with code signing. And…if that’s not bad enough, we want to be able to deploy updates immediately when necessary. This is mission critical software for these businesses. Thankfully, we can roll out on desktop immediately but on phones, there was one time a couple years ago where we had to deny all Android access for 48 hours cause there was a bad bug over a public holiday weekend. So now, we won’t update the app around holidays. I will say, app review has gotten better over the years and most of ours go theough within 30 mins these days but every now and again it’ll take a couple days which keeps that spectre in the back of your mind.