4 ms·

I had this reaction to descriptions of Planescape Torment; Maybe it's a D&D thing.

bluefirebrand 3y ago
It's something I've been saying for years honestly. Most game writing is bad. This has always been the case. The result is that gamers have very low expectations for the writing. And for many people now, their primary exposure to writing is through videogames and blockbuster movies, so they don't have any other baseline for comparing against. I also think that the quality of the execution matters more than the actual story. A lot of games have basically the same stories but one will be praised and the other not, because one executes the story better. Anyways, my main point is that standards for game writing is so low that really mediocre stuff gets a lot of praise by comparison to even worse stuff.
- bee_rider 3y ago
  D&D players too; your campaign will be a combination of improv and the writing of your friend who is DMing. Everyone is doing it for fun and nobody is a professional, the “writing” expectations are not super high.
  - corethree 3y ago
    The lore for D&D is extremely well done. Better than even a novel. The reason is because the game is all about lore, so the focus was on world building. While for a story the lore is their only to serve the story. If there was some sort of writing Pulitzer prize just for world building, D&D would be up there.
    - bluefirebrand 3y ago
      Dungeons and Dragons is a game system, not a setting. When you're taking about the setting that D&D 5e uses, you're taking about a setting called The Forgotten Realms. There are actually dozens of novels set in The Forgotten Realms, going back decades, which is part of why there is so much world building done. And believe me that while many of those novels are fun reads, none of them are winning any prizes for writing.
      - corethree 3y ago
        I'm not talking about the novels. I'm talking about the dungeons and dragons setting which is part of the game. Forgotten realms is just one "region" in the setting. It is one universe in a multiverse of regions. This multiverse is called Planescape. All d&d games that I know about utilize that setting. In Planescape any arch way or opening can be a potential portal to another realm. You just need the right key. The key could be an object, a leaf, or a childhood memory or a song that can take you to another world when you walk through the archway of which there are an infinite amount. The forgotten realms is one of these places. But I'm repeating myself. You played torment so you know this as it takes place in the city of sigil the city that lies at the nexus of the multiverse. I mean there are books dedicated to just describing the d&d setting and if they gave out awards for settings, these books would win. The novels aren't part of this. That's what I'm saying.
        bee_rider 3y ago
        It is a good setting for running a game in, in the sense that it is an everything-setting where you can justify access to any planes. It produces a framework where you can throw ideas at the wall and they stick pretty well. I don’t think this sort of flexibility indicates great writing in the literary sense. It is like a better thought out version of Marvel’s multiverse stuff: a really functional way of giving somebody working in a setting the latitude to select parts of that setting as needed. It is designed by an organization to achieve a goal for the game system, not to be great art.
        corethree 3y ago
        The goal for the game system is created to facilitate great stories. It's art, and no other piece of fantasy lore matches it in depth, breadth and consistency to my knowledge. The amount of artists and writers who created it makes it art in my eyes. There's no other utility for it other than story telling either. If that's not art, what is it? The snobs at the Pulitzer who haven't even awarded a win to sci Fi novel may think otherwise but to each their own. In terms of the topic at hand, fantasy lore, there's few that can rival d&d. Let's be real too. Baldurs gate and torment weren't made because of the great d&d gameplay system... The creators wanted to utilize the lore.
Sharlin 3y ago
I mean, I doubt you are in any position to judge the writing of PS:T just based on descriptions of it. The writing of PS:T is vastly better than an “Adventures of Drizzt Do’urden, part 153” YA fantasy novel or what have you. Perhaps it wouldn’t win a Pulitzer if it were a book, but for a computer game the writing is incredibly good. But what’s really shocking about the writing is 1. How much of it there is 2. How well it showcases the utter weirdness of Planescape compared to your standard D&D settings like Forgotten Realms 3. How it subverts, inverts, lampshades or in any other way plays with every major high fantasy and D&D trope that you can think of. Whatever you have heard of the writing, there’s nothing generically “D&D” about it.
- corethree 3y ago
  The pulitzer prize is a genre award. Don't rely on that. They conflate genre with good writing in the sense that only books about deep character studies or books about racism and things of that deep nature ever win. PS:T can win a Hugo. The Hugo award is something that gets it right. They can admit they're awarding stuff to a narrow genre while the Pulitzer is deceptive in the sense they don't ever admit to the narrowness of their decisions. I don't think a Sci Fi has ever won a Pulitzer. That attitude is representative of a lot of what's going on in this thread. This sort of snobbishness where people mistake good writing and bad writing for what is in actuality genre preferences. I also wouldn't advertise the setting of PS:T too much. Yes it's unique, but that's only a small part of the reason why it's good. Torment's informal sequel: Tides of Numenera had the same unique setting but wasn't nearly as good because it lacked the core. Torment was good because it was compelling and haunting. The setting is just icing on the cake.
corethree 3y ago
No. Planescape torment is significantly better than a YA novel. This isn't Harry Potter. Torment can win a hugo if it was a book. It's that good. Better than a lot of hugo winners too. I get where you're coming from though. Planescape has elements of a YA novel, it's designed to be a page turner and the like. The setting is also very unique and fantastical and that gives it a bit of a YA novel flavor because people conflate this for the reason for why it's good in their "rave reviews". Like "wow! such an imaginative setting for an adventure!" and that kind of thing. But make no mistake the game is haunting. When you finish it you're different. It's def not just some typical adventure story in some wildly fantastical setting. Read this review, (the first part before she gets in to deep into the fantasy elements and side characters) she couldn't have put it better: https://tap-repeatedly.com/2003/02/planescape-torment-review/ https://tap-repeatedly.com/2003/02/planescape-torment-review... "If computer games developers ever hope to stake their claim in the mature artistic mainstream alongside painting, music and literature, it won’t happen by coming up with ever more capable engines, sweeter eye candy or addictive gameplay, though it won’t happen without them either. It will happen by drafting all of the above into the service of compelling characters such as these, characters who make you care about them, characters who send you pawing for the reload command because you simply cannot possibly conceive of moving another inch without them. Planescape Torment accomplishes all this and more, capturing the player’s heart and intellect, taking him on a long, fraught journey through one of the most unique settings I’ve experienced in any medium and wrapping it up in a stunning, jaw-dropping finale." "Don’t approach this CRPG too lightly. It’s the gaming equivalent of War and Peace, slow to start, frustratingly obscure at times, yet once that great narrative engine finally revs up, it moves the player along with breathtaking authority. I’ve only played it once so far. Usually I play a game twice before sitting down to review it, but I’m not ready to reenter the world of Planescape Torment just yet. There’s something about this game. It’s disturbing, haunting and heavy. I’ve never seen anything quite like it." Like her I was never able to play it twice. I was left in something of a state of awe when I finished the game, but not really... I can't describe it.. It's that same feeling when you finish a really good book. It's unfortunate that it's wrapped up in the skin of a YA novel. But in actuality the skin only adds to it and makes it better, but at it's core it stands above that. Way above that.

It's something I've been saying for years honestly. Most game writing is bad. This has always been the case. The result is that gamers have very low expectations for the writing. And for many people now, their primary exposure to writing is through videogames and blockbuster movies, so they don't have any other baseline for comparing against. I also think that the quality of the execution matters more than the actual story. A lot of games have basically the same stories but one will be praised and the other not, because one executes the story better. Anyways, my main point is that standards for game writing is so low that really mediocre stuff gets a lot of praise by comparison to even worse stuff.

bee_rider 3y ago
D&D players too; your campaign will be a combination of improv and the writing of your friend who is DMing. Everyone is doing it for fun and nobody is a professional, the “writing” expectations are not super high.
- corethree 3y ago
  The lore for D&D is extremely well done. Better than even a novel. The reason is because the game is all about lore, so the focus was on world building. While for a story the lore is their only to serve the story. If there was some sort of writing Pulitzer prize just for world building, D&D would be up there.
  - bluefirebrand 3y ago
    Dungeons and Dragons is a game system, not a setting. When you're taking about the setting that D&D 5e uses, you're taking about a setting called The Forgotten Realms. There are actually dozens of novels set in The Forgotten Realms, going back decades, which is part of why there is so much world building done. And believe me that while many of those novels are fun reads, none of them are winning any prizes for writing.
    - corethree 3y ago
      I'm not talking about the novels. I'm talking about the dungeons and dragons setting which is part of the game. Forgotten realms is just one "region" in the setting. It is one universe in a multiverse of regions. This multiverse is called Planescape. All d&d games that I know about utilize that setting. In Planescape any arch way or opening can be a potential portal to another realm. You just need the right key. The key could be an object, a leaf, or a childhood memory or a song that can take you to another world when you walk through the archway of which there are an infinite amount. The forgotten realms is one of these places. But I'm repeating myself. You played torment so you know this as it takes place in the city of sigil the city that lies at the nexus of the multiverse. I mean there are books dedicated to just describing the d&d setting and if they gave out awards for settings, these books would win. The novels aren't part of this. That's what I'm saying.
      - bee_rider 3y ago
        It is a good setting for running a game in, in the sense that it is an everything-setting where you can justify access to any planes. It produces a framework where you can throw ideas at the wall and they stick pretty well. I don’t think this sort of flexibility indicates great writing in the literary sense. It is like a better thought out version of Marvel’s multiverse stuff: a really functional way of giving somebody working in a setting the latitude to select parts of that setting as needed. It is designed by an organization to achieve a goal for the game system, not to be great art.
        corethree 3y ago
        The goal for the game system is created to facilitate great stories. It's art, and no other piece of fantasy lore matches it in depth, breadth and consistency to my knowledge. The amount of artists and writers who created it makes it art in my eyes. There's no other utility for it other than story telling either. If that's not art, what is it? The snobs at the Pulitzer who haven't even awarded a win to sci Fi novel may think otherwise but to each their own. In terms of the topic at hand, fantasy lore, there's few that can rival d&d. Let's be real too. Baldurs gate and torment weren't made because of the great d&d gameplay system... The creators wanted to utilize the lore.

Sharlin 3y ago

I mean, I doubt you are in any position to judge the writing of PS:T just based on descriptions of it. The writing of PS:T is vastly better than an “Adventures of Drizzt Do’urden, part 153” YA fantasy novel or what have you. Perhaps it wouldn’t win a Pulitzer if it were a book, but for a computer game the writing is incredibly good. But what’s really shocking about the writing is 1. How much of it there is 2. How well it showcases the utter weirdness of Planescape compared to your standard D&D settings like Forgotten Realms 3. How it subverts, inverts, lampshades or in any other way plays with every major high fantasy and D&D trope that you can think of. Whatever you have heard of the writing, there’s nothing generically “D&D” about it.

corethree 3y ago
The pulitzer prize is a genre award. Don't rely on that. They conflate genre with good writing in the sense that only books about deep character studies or books about racism and things of that deep nature ever win. PS:T can win a Hugo. The Hugo award is something that gets it right. They can admit they're awarding stuff to a narrow genre while the Pulitzer is deceptive in the sense they don't ever admit to the narrowness of their decisions. I don't think a Sci Fi has ever won a Pulitzer. That attitude is representative of a lot of what's going on in this thread. This sort of snobbishness where people mistake good writing and bad writing for what is in actuality genre preferences. I also wouldn't advertise the setting of PS:T too much. Yes it's unique, but that's only a small part of the reason why it's good. Torment's informal sequel: Tides of Numenera had the same unique setting but wasn't nearly as good because it lacked the core. Torment was good because it was compelling and haunting. The setting is just icing on the cake.

corethree 3y ago

No. Planescape torment is significantly better than a YA novel. This isn't Harry Potter. Torment can win a hugo if it was a book. It's that good. Better than a lot of hugo winners too. I get where you're coming from though. Planescape has elements of a YA novel, it's designed to be a page turner and the like. The setting is also very unique and fantastical and that gives it a bit of a YA novel flavor because people conflate this for the reason for why it's good in their "rave reviews". Like "wow! such an imaginative setting for an adventure!" and that kind of thing. But make no mistake the game is haunting. When you finish it you're different. It's def not just some typical adventure story in some wildly fantastical setting. Read this review, (the first part before she gets in to deep into the fantasy elements and side characters) she couldn't have put it better: https://tap-repeatedly.com/2003/02/planescape-torment-review/ https://tap-repeatedly.com/2003/02/planescape-torment-review... "If computer games developers ever hope to stake their claim in the mature artistic mainstream alongside painting, music and literature, it won’t happen by coming up with ever more capable engines, sweeter eye candy or addictive gameplay, though it won’t happen without them either. It will happen by drafting all of the above into the service of compelling characters such as these, characters who make you care about them, characters who send you pawing for the reload command because you simply cannot possibly conceive of moving another inch without them. Planescape Torment accomplishes all this and more, capturing the player’s heart and intellect, taking him on a long, fraught journey through one of the most unique settings I’ve experienced in any medium and wrapping it up in a stunning, jaw-dropping finale." "Don’t approach this CRPG too lightly. It’s the gaming equivalent of War and Peace, slow to start, frustratingly obscure at times, yet once that great narrative engine finally revs up, it moves the player along with breathtaking authority. I’ve only played it once so far. Usually I play a game twice before sitting down to review it, but I’m not ready to reenter the world of Planescape Torment just yet. There’s something about this game. It’s disturbing, haunting and heavy. I’ve never seen anything quite like it." Like her I was never able to play it twice. I was left in something of a state of awe when I finished the game, but not really... I can't describe it.. It's that same feeling when you finish a really good book. It's unfortunate that it's wrapped up in the skin of a YA novel. But in actuality the skin only adds to it and makes it better, but at it's core it stands above that. Way above that.