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Working with these criteria sounds a bit like the experience of working with some outsourcing firms. This can work, but there’s a big upfront burden on whateve

Working with these criteria sounds a bit like the experience of working with some outsourcing firms. This can work, but there’s a big upfront burden on whatever PM interfaces with the person/people who work this way. I’m curious if you have seen how the companies you work for handle any of the following problems I’ve seen come with this working style: - PM breaks down tasks with such granularity that it’s like they’re programming the people doing the work. They learn a programming language through a bootcamp and start doing some tickets themselves, and now you have a key product person who is likely to leave for a developer job. - PM gets burnt out from dealing with behavior that would be considered extremely impolite on a regular basis. - No PM you have or could hire is capable of breaking down tasks in a way they will get worked on or responded to, at which point you have to find another dev/firm.

g4zj 3y ago
> PM breaks down tasks with such granularity that it’s like they’re programming the people doing the work. They learn a programming language through a bootcamp and start doing some tickets themselves, and now you have a key product person who is likely to leave for a developer job. I haven't run into this scenario, but I have encountered project managers who want to read the code and advise on that level, which I don't think is very productive at all. Unfortunately, in my experience, managers like this need to see for themselves how much time and energy is wasted trying to be this hands-on, as opposed to deferring to the developers. > PM gets burnt out from dealing with behavior that would be considered extremely impolite on a regular basis. I've had this happen with multiple project managers. My understanding is that working with people, including dealing with seemingly impolite behavior, is a part of any management role. This is precisely why I'm not interested in management — I'd be terrible at it. It should also be noted that I've experienced my own feelings of burnout as a result of dealing with the behavior of managers as well, and whether I find such behaviors to be impolite or not, the only control I have is with how I respond to them. I choose to do so in ways that allow me to avoid stress and frustration, and I'd do the same in their position. As for the company's response to manager burnout in this situation, it's difficult to say because it mostly seems to happen behind closed doors. I've had managers quit projects, and I've been reassigned to other projects which were under different management. I'm fine with either case, as long as we're all able to work reasonably comfortably and have our individuality respected. > No PM you have or could hire is capable of breaking down tasks in a way they will get worked on or responded to, at which point you have to find another dev/firm. This has been a concern of mine in the past, and so I always try to provide examples of what I think are reasonable methods of communicating within the group. I design processes, describe roles and responsibilities, and set expectations as best I can, all while taking the preferences and individuality of others into account. I would never require my specific suggestions to be implemented as-described before participating, but I feel that the principles behind them should be understood and that reasonable efforts should be made to accommodate them. And I think all members of the team deserve the same considerations.
- jimberlage 3y ago
  Thanks for the response! One thing that may help - dealing with impoliteness is an expectation of a __people__ management role, but not an expectation I would have of project or product managers. If you’re consistently seeing PM burnout, it will only hurt your position to defend it by appealing to the manager name in their job title.
  - g4zj 3y ago
    Excellent point, and I agree entirely. My experience is generally in environments where project managers are expected to also manage the people working on the project, at least to some extent, and so I didn't think to make this important distinction.

g4zj 3y ago

> PM breaks down tasks with such granularity that it’s like they’re programming the people doing the work. They learn a programming language through a bootcamp and start doing some tickets themselves, and now you have a key product person who is likely to leave for a developer job. I haven't run into this scenario, but I have encountered project managers who want to read the code and advise on that level, which I don't think is very productive at all. Unfortunately, in my experience, managers like this need to see for themselves how much time and energy is wasted trying to be this hands-on, as opposed to deferring to the developers. > PM gets burnt out from dealing with behavior that would be considered extremely impolite on a regular basis. I've had this happen with multiple project managers. My understanding is that working with people, including dealing with seemingly impolite behavior, is a part of any management role. This is precisely why I'm not interested in management — I'd be terrible at it. It should also be noted that I've experienced my own feelings of burnout as a result of dealing with the behavior of managers as well, and whether I find such behaviors to be impolite or not, the only control I have is with how I respond to them. I choose to do so in ways that allow me to avoid stress and frustration, and I'd do the same in their position. As for the company's response to manager burnout in this situation, it's difficult to say because it mostly seems to happen behind closed doors. I've had managers quit projects, and I've been reassigned to other projects which were under different management. I'm fine with either case, as long as we're all able to work reasonably comfortably and have our individuality respected. > No PM you have or could hire is capable of breaking down tasks in a way they will get worked on or responded to, at which point you have to find another dev/firm. This has been a concern of mine in the past, and so I always try to provide examples of what I think are reasonable methods of communicating within the group. I design processes, describe roles and responsibilities, and set expectations as best I can, all while taking the preferences and individuality of others into account. I would never require my specific suggestions to be implemented as-described before participating, but I feel that the principles behind them should be understood and that reasonable efforts should be made to accommodate them. And I think all members of the team deserve the same considerations.

jimberlage 3y ago
Thanks for the response! One thing that may help - dealing with impoliteness is an expectation of a __people__ management role, but not an expectation I would have of project or product managers. If you’re consistently seeing PM burnout, it will only hurt your position to defend it by appealing to the manager name in their job title.
- g4zj 3y ago
  Excellent point, and I agree entirely. My experience is generally in environments where project managers are expected to also manage the people working on the project, at least to some extent, and so I didn't think to make this important distinction.