2 ms·

creating a list/forum to mouth off is encouragement. in one case to join you has to mouth off really bad. and leaders thanking the existence of the list...

by em-bee 3y ago

lazide 3y ago
I think we’re talking about vastly different things.
- em-bee 3y ago
  apparently we are now. the thread from the beginning was about spaces where people can badmouth others without reprisal. i read your question in that context. some people doing this all the time, is not an excuse, and the existence of such spaces encourages that kind of behavior. no more no less. regarding murder, lynch mobs did exist, and they were also encouraged by allowing them to gather and normalizing that behavior. it's not talking about murder that encourages it, it's talking about it in a positive way that does. groups that tolerate bad behavior generally tend to end up encouraging it if they don't put a stop to it. there are plenty of examples for that out there. just think about protests go out of hand. one person breaks a window, sets a trash can on fire, steals something from a shop and more people join in. the only way to stop that is to keep ourselves in check and not allow such behavior but stop it when it happens. allowing those lists to be created did the opposite. if you need to badmouth something, find a therapist.
  - lazide 3y ago
    I think we're saying the same thing, you're just angrier about it - and seem to be pointing at me. Which seems impolite.
    - em-bee 3y ago
      I think we're saying the same thing that would be great, but i didn't have that impression. statements like people do it all the time and you asking who is encouraging anyone made it look like you didn't agree. in particular the claim that people do it all the time is often used as an excuse to allow such behavior to continue. i am not angry at you. i am sorry if it looks like that. i am however angry at the attitude that because such behavior is common and it should be tolerated. which is how i interpreted your response. if i misread that, i apologize.
      - lazide 3y ago
        Thanks, I get why you would think that. Apologies for being flippant and not stating things more explicitly. I was trying to do the equivalent of pointing out that the comment was similar to something like ‘murder is terrible and wrong!’ (which implies it wouldn’t happen naturally), that that is all well and good - but it happens all the time, often even with a LOT of work being done to stop it. At least for any sufficiently large group of people. Murder happens naturally, just like people talking shit about folks they don’t like. One could argue one is just a more extreme version of the other. So if someone has responsibility for the company (in this talking shit about people example) or city/county/state/country whatever (in the murder context), pretending it won’t happen and so not having mechanisms to discourage it and clean up the mess/minimize the damage will just result in an even bigger and more damaging mess. Why have rules against something or people to enforce those rules for something that won’t happen, after all. So having HR rules against these sorts of groups is a good idea. As is having a reasonably short retention rule to minimize damage when someone ends up doing it anyway. (since even firing someone doesn’t get rid of those emails) And paying attention to pending problems on this front to proactively reduce risk. Then it might only happen 1%, or .001% of the rate it otherwise would. Which is good. But for any sufficiently large group, it’s never going to be 0% of the time. And for a very large group, that can end up costing them many many many billions of $.

creating a list/forum to mouth off is encouragement. in one case to join you has to mouth off really bad. and leaders thanking the existence of the list...

by em-bee 3y ago

creating a list/forum to mouth off is encouragement. in one case to join you has to mouth off really bad. and leaders thanking the existence of the list...

lazide 3y ago

I think we’re talking about vastly different things.

em-bee 3y ago
apparently we are now. the thread from the beginning was about spaces where people can badmouth others without reprisal. i read your question in that context. some people doing this all the time, is not an excuse, and the existence of such spaces encourages that kind of behavior. no more no less. regarding murder, lynch mobs did exist, and they were also encouraged by allowing them to gather and normalizing that behavior. it's not talking about murder that encourages it, it's talking about it in a positive way that does. groups that tolerate bad behavior generally tend to end up encouraging it if they don't put a stop to it. there are plenty of examples for that out there. just think about protests go out of hand. one person breaks a window, sets a trash can on fire, steals something from a shop and more people join in. the only way to stop that is to keep ourselves in check and not allow such behavior but stop it when it happens. allowing those lists to be created did the opposite. if you need to badmouth something, find a therapist.
- lazide 3y ago
  I think we're saying the same thing, you're just angrier about it - and seem to be pointing at me. Which seems impolite.
  - em-bee 3y ago
    I think we're saying the same thing that would be great, but i didn't have that impression. statements like people do it all the time and you asking who is encouraging anyone made it look like you didn't agree. in particular the claim that people do it all the time is often used as an excuse to allow such behavior to continue. i am not angry at you. i am sorry if it looks like that. i am however angry at the attitude that because such behavior is common and it should be tolerated. which is how i interpreted your response. if i misread that, i apologize.
    - lazide 3y ago
      Thanks, I get why you would think that. Apologies for being flippant and not stating things more explicitly. I was trying to do the equivalent of pointing out that the comment was similar to something like ‘murder is terrible and wrong!’ (which implies it wouldn’t happen naturally), that that is all well and good - but it happens all the time, often even with a LOT of work being done to stop it. At least for any sufficiently large group of people. Murder happens naturally, just like people talking shit about folks they don’t like. One could argue one is just a more extreme version of the other. So if someone has responsibility for the company (in this talking shit about people example) or city/county/state/country whatever (in the murder context), pretending it won’t happen and so not having mechanisms to discourage it and clean up the mess/minimize the damage will just result in an even bigger and more damaging mess. Why have rules against something or people to enforce those rules for something that won’t happen, after all. So having HR rules against these sorts of groups is a good idea. As is having a reasonably short retention rule to minimize damage when someone ends up doing it anyway. (since even firing someone doesn’t get rid of those emails) And paying attention to pending problems on this front to proactively reduce risk. Then it might only happen 1%, or .001% of the rate it otherwise would. Which is good. But for any sufficiently large group, it’s never going to be 0% of the time. And for a very large group, that can end up costing them many many many billions of $.