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eSIMs are superficially about "making phones smaller" and waterproofing. What eSIMs really are about: the industry fighting back against regulations restrictin

eSIMs are superficially about "making phones smaller" and waterproofing. What eSIMs really are about: the industry fighting back against regulations restricting their anti-competitive SIM and carrier locking. eSIMs are about is stripping owners of the control they have via pulling the physical SIM and putting it in another phone.

rollcat 3y ago
Nothing a quick regulation can't solve. If EU could make Apple use USB-C and enable non-Webkit browsers, I'm sure same could be done to fix eSIM.
- lakpan 3y ago
  See you in 2035 Unfortunately we have to suffer for a long time before regulation follows, if ever. Then regulation follows and we get cookie banners sometimes.
  - rusk 3y ago
    Sometimes you get free roaming and flat rate data tariffs …
  - tjoff 3y ago
    It is just adapting existing laws to esims. Won't be nearly that long. In the meantime, don't buy esims. Nothing but drawbacks.
    - lucasban 3y ago
      I find buying local eSIMs when traveling internationally to be much more convenient than physical SIMs
      - tjoff 3y ago
        Maybe, never had a need. But even more reason to have a physical sim for your primary service.
  - rollcat 3y ago
    Sometimes we get cookie banners, sometimes we get EC 261, Schengen, or USB-C. The root cause of the cookie banner problem was implementing third-party cookies in the first place. Regulation is like violence; in both that if it doesn't work you just need more, and that if you needed to resort to it you've already fucked up. We can't wind the clock back and give Netscape a slap, or stop the operators from introducing SIM-lock on handsets. The next best thing is to fix it now, and yeah, sometimes the wheels have to turn slowly. What else do you propose we do? Refuse to use mobile data? (Actually, doesn't seem like the worst idea.)
juggertao 3y ago
If it was about control the carriers would block the SIM when it was moved to a different phone.
- tjoff 3y ago
  They used to do that, but it was outlawed.
microtonal 3y ago
Not everywhere. The typical practice was to offer steep discounts on phones (or even 'free' phones), where the phone was paid through a high subscription price. However, the high subscription price was maintained after the phone was long paid off. This was ruled illegal in The Netherlands (and many other EU countries I believe), first because it was a loan in disguise (so the providers were bound to do credit checks), secondly because they are not allowed to continue charging the high subscription prices when the phone is already paid off. As a result, SIM locking does not have any benefit to the providers anymore and they stopped doing that. That said, I have used eSIMs for years now and there is not much of a real benefit outside dual SIM in phones that only have one physical SIM slot (like iPhone). When first starting a subscription it's faster, because you don't have to wait until the SIM card comes through snail mail. But after that there is always the anxiety after switching to a new phone whether the eSIM transition goes well. With most providers you have to request the eSIM through their app on your new phone, you get a second factor code on your old phone (where the SIM is still active), then an eSIM is installed on the new phone, but only activated after you remove the eSIM from the old phone. Sometimes you get an error in the middle of the process and it's not clear whether the migration is complete or not. Another issue is that if somehow the screen of your phone is destroyed, it's hard to move the eSIM to a replacement. While with a physical card you just pop it out and put it in your new phone.
- bitwize 3y ago
  Many of the practices that were ruled illegal in your crystal-spires-and-togas utopia are alive and quite well in the stone-knives-and-bearskins hellscape across the pond. In particular, our carriers (excepting, as of yet, the German one) still whitelist handsets.
denkmoon 3y ago
Can anyone actually cite a case of anti-lockin regulations being subverted because someone was using an esim instead of a physical sim? Not saying it doesn't happen but I'd be pretty surprised if a court suddenly said lockin is ok because they added an "e" to the SIM.
- rtpg 3y ago
  yeah I don't get this. Isn't the practical thing that esim transfers end up just being "go to your carrier's website and do a thing again"? I feel like people with these comments don't realise that in many mobile markets carriers that do lockin don't do it via SIM cards, they do it via IMEI number locks on the phone. So even if you have a physical SIM card, you put it in another phone and it just doesn't work.
  - masklinn 3y ago
    > Isn't the practical thing that esim transfers end up just being "go to your carrier's website and do a thing again"? My carrier straight up doesn't support esim transfer as in moving the esim from one phone to an other, you have to renew / order a new one (as if you'd lost a physical sim basically). It does not take too long once you find out you have to do that, and hunt down how to do it, but it's stressful, annoying, and dumb.
    - rtpg 3y ago
      That's what I meant, yeah. Just feels like a UX issue, instead of some evil plot to prevent you from buying a new phone
- joshstrange 3y ago
  I can. I bought a bunch of cellular iPads off Amazon (“renewed”, aka refurbished) for my business. I tried out a few IoT cellular providers and the first one used regular SIM cards and they worked just fine. The second carrier (that I ultimately went with) used eSIM and while most my iPads joined up without issue I had 7 of them refuse to add the eSIM. While carriers aren’t allowed to lock iPads SIM they _are_ allowed to lock them to only work with their eSIM. AT&T was the culprit here and you can find multiple mentions of this practice on their forums which appeared to be the only way to get help on this issue. Post a new topic, wait for customer support to come along and PM you, then ask for your iPads to be unlocked (EUICC). AT&T Forum support ultimately told me “those iPads aren’t in our system, there is no lock on them”. I tried calling in (BTW, they won’t even talk to you unless you are a customer of theirs which, thankfully?, I was for my personal line) and spent hours on the phone with them only to be told the same thing. I want to be clear, I spent over 4 hours across multiple calls where I was told different things but ultimately told “there is nothing we can do”. At this point I called Apple (Apple Business Manager) where I was able to talk to a real person within <1 min of dialing (normally I spent 10min in AT&T phone tree hell) and they confirmed “this is an EUICC/eSIM lock on the device by AT&T. ONLY AT&T can remove the lock”. I cannot rave enough about how easy it was to talk to ABM and how knowledgeable the person was, not to mention how they were easy to understand and immediately understood what I was asking. It was a stark difference from AT&T. I called back into AT&T and just kept pushing until someone said they would do it and it’d be fixed in 24 hours. It was not. I had a couple more rounds with AT&T, each with 24-72 hours promises that it would be fixed. This dragged on for _weeks_. Finally, as a hail mary before I attempted to return the troublesome iPads to Amazon (which was what AT&T support kept suggesting I do), I filed an FCC complaint and in less than 3 days AT&T reached out to me (no more automated systems) and released the lock on all my iPads. The same lock they swore didn’t exist, for iPads they swore were not “in their system”. So yeah, there’s a case of anti-lock in being subverted with eSIM and the hell I had to go through to get it fixed.
andruby 3y ago
Do you have any more info how esims benefit the carrier? I’m not in the US and superficially, it seems like esim and physical sim don’t differ that much.

rollcat 3y ago

Nothing a quick regulation can't solve. If EU could make Apple use USB-C and enable non-Webkit browsers, I'm sure same could be done to fix eSIM.

lakpan 3y ago
See you in 2035 Unfortunately we have to suffer for a long time before regulation follows, if ever. Then regulation follows and we get cookie banners sometimes.
- rusk 3y ago
  Sometimes you get free roaming and flat rate data tariffs …
- tjoff 3y ago
  It is just adapting existing laws to esims. Won't be nearly that long. In the meantime, don't buy esims. Nothing but drawbacks.
  - lucasban 3y ago
    I find buying local eSIMs when traveling internationally to be much more convenient than physical SIMs
    - tjoff 3y ago
      Maybe, never had a need. But even more reason to have a physical sim for your primary service.
- rollcat 3y ago
  Sometimes we get cookie banners, sometimes we get EC 261, Schengen, or USB-C. The root cause of the cookie banner problem was implementing third-party cookies in the first place. Regulation is like violence; in both that if it doesn't work you just need more, and that if you needed to resort to it you've already fucked up. We can't wind the clock back and give Netscape a slap, or stop the operators from introducing SIM-lock on handsets. The next best thing is to fix it now, and yeah, sometimes the wheels have to turn slowly. What else do you propose we do? Refuse to use mobile data? (Actually, doesn't seem like the worst idea.)

juggertao 3y ago

If it was about control the carriers would block the SIM when it was moved to a different phone.

tjoff 3y ago
They used to do that, but it was outlawed.

microtonal 3y ago

Not everywhere. The typical practice was to offer steep discounts on phones (or even 'free' phones), where the phone was paid through a high subscription price. However, the high subscription price was maintained after the phone was long paid off. This was ruled illegal in The Netherlands (and many other EU countries I believe), first because it was a loan in disguise (so the providers were bound to do credit checks), secondly because they are not allowed to continue charging the high subscription prices when the phone is already paid off. As a result, SIM locking does not have any benefit to the providers anymore and they stopped doing that. That said, I have used eSIMs for years now and there is not much of a real benefit outside dual SIM in phones that only have one physical SIM slot (like iPhone). When first starting a subscription it's faster, because you don't have to wait until the SIM card comes through snail mail. But after that there is always the anxiety after switching to a new phone whether the eSIM transition goes well. With most providers you have to request the eSIM through their app on your new phone, you get a second factor code on your old phone (where the SIM is still active), then an eSIM is installed on the new phone, but only activated after you remove the eSIM from the old phone. Sometimes you get an error in the middle of the process and it's not clear whether the migration is complete or not. Another issue is that if somehow the screen of your phone is destroyed, it's hard to move the eSIM to a replacement. While with a physical card you just pop it out and put it in your new phone.

bitwize 3y ago
Many of the practices that were ruled illegal in your crystal-spires-and-togas utopia are alive and quite well in the stone-knives-and-bearskins hellscape across the pond. In particular, our carriers (excepting, as of yet, the German one) still whitelist handsets.

denkmoon 3y ago

Can anyone actually cite a case of anti-lockin regulations being subverted because someone was using an esim instead of a physical sim? Not saying it doesn't happen but I'd be pretty surprised if a court suddenly said lockin is ok because they added an "e" to the SIM.

rtpg 3y ago
yeah I don't get this. Isn't the practical thing that esim transfers end up just being "go to your carrier's website and do a thing again"? I feel like people with these comments don't realise that in many mobile markets carriers that do lockin don't do it via SIM cards, they do it via IMEI number locks on the phone. So even if you have a physical SIM card, you put it in another phone and it just doesn't work.
- masklinn 3y ago
  > Isn't the practical thing that esim transfers end up just being "go to your carrier's website and do a thing again"? My carrier straight up doesn't support esim transfer as in moving the esim from one phone to an other, you have to renew / order a new one (as if you'd lost a physical sim basically). It does not take too long once you find out you have to do that, and hunt down how to do it, but it's stressful, annoying, and dumb.
  - rtpg 3y ago
    That's what I meant, yeah. Just feels like a UX issue, instead of some evil plot to prevent you from buying a new phone
joshstrange 3y ago
I can. I bought a bunch of cellular iPads off Amazon (“renewed”, aka refurbished) for my business. I tried out a few IoT cellular providers and the first one used regular SIM cards and they worked just fine. The second carrier (that I ultimately went with) used eSIM and while most my iPads joined up without issue I had 7 of them refuse to add the eSIM. While carriers aren’t allowed to lock iPads SIM they _are_ allowed to lock them to only work with their eSIM. AT&T was the culprit here and you can find multiple mentions of this practice on their forums which appeared to be the only way to get help on this issue. Post a new topic, wait for customer support to come along and PM you, then ask for your iPads to be unlocked (EUICC). AT&T Forum support ultimately told me “those iPads aren’t in our system, there is no lock on them”. I tried calling in (BTW, they won’t even talk to you unless you are a customer of theirs which, thankfully?, I was for my personal line) and spent hours on the phone with them only to be told the same thing. I want to be clear, I spent over 4 hours across multiple calls where I was told different things but ultimately told “there is nothing we can do”. At this point I called Apple (Apple Business Manager) where I was able to talk to a real person within <1 min of dialing (normally I spent 10min in AT&T phone tree hell) and they confirmed “this is an EUICC/eSIM lock on the device by AT&T. ONLY AT&T can remove the lock”. I cannot rave enough about how easy it was to talk to ABM and how knowledgeable the person was, not to mention how they were easy to understand and immediately understood what I was asking. It was a stark difference from AT&T. I called back into AT&T and just kept pushing until someone said they would do it and it’d be fixed in 24 hours. It was not. I had a couple more rounds with AT&T, each with 24-72 hours promises that it would be fixed. This dragged on for _weeks_. Finally, as a hail mary before I attempted to return the troublesome iPads to Amazon (which was what AT&T support kept suggesting I do), I filed an FCC complaint and in less than 3 days AT&T reached out to me (no more automated systems) and released the lock on all my iPads. The same lock they swore didn’t exist, for iPads they swore were not “in their system”. So yeah, there’s a case of anti-lock in being subverted with eSIM and the hell I had to go through to get it fixed.

andruby 3y ago

Do you have any more info how esims benefit the carrier? I’m not in the US and superficially, it seems like esim and physical sim don’t differ that much.