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Don’t conflate the concepts of user and customer. “You are a product” as a user is not an exaggeration but ground truth. They run a business, not a charity or g

Don’t conflate the concepts of user and customer. “You are a product” as a user is not an exaggeration but ground truth. They run a business, not a charity or government-subsidized public service, and their paying customers are advertisers. If you have a problem with Big Social banning your free account, you have a problem not with Meta but with this business model being legal. Offering free “service” to collect and retain ad viewer eyeballs distorts the way market is supposed to work, because it’s impossible to compete with free and customers are locked in. The only way out of this ever-deepening quagmire is to forbid this business model; all users should be paying customers, so the company is accountable to them, they can vote with their wallet, and the market can do its job properly.

aurareturn 3y ago
I think by now, everyone knows how Meta's business model works. No need to explain it. The point isn't that I'm a product or a customer. The point is that given the locked in data that can affect real human lives, Meta and Google ought to put more into the process of reversing erroneously banned accounts. I'm not a law expert. Regardless, it's this person who won the case has done a good thing for all Meta users.
- strogonoff 3y ago
  > The point is that given the locked in data that can affect real human lives, Meta and Google ought to put more into the process of reversing erroneously banned accounts. There’s many things they could do to affect human lives better, but they have a fiscal responsibility to not spend money on that unless those humans are their paying customers. Again, this is not a charity. This is a legal business, if you don’t like this you should fight for a change to the definition of “legal”.
pdonis 3y ago
> The only way out of this ever-deepening quagmire is to forbid this business model I'm not sure this would actually fix the problem. The existing Big Social companies are so committed to this business model that I don't think they are capable of switching. I think some other company (that doesn't exist now) would have to figure out how to run the all-users-are-paying-customers business model at scale for things like search and social media. But who would run such a company? The company that was in the best position to do this, twenty or so years ago, was...Google. They had the tech resources, and they had the "Don't be evil" motto, which back then they were actually making some effort to live up to. And yet nobody there tried to get this done. Who is going to do it now?
- strogonoff 3y ago
  By “forbid it” I meant “make it illegal” (not as in “big government tell everyone what to do”, but as in “let the market do its job properly”). If it’s illegal, they would have no other choice would they!
  - pdonis 3y ago
    > By “forbid it” I meant “make it illegal” Yes, I understand that. > not as in “big government tell everyone what to do”, but as in “let the market do its job properly” You are missing a crucial point: the current state of Big Social Media is a product of a free market. Users freely choose to take advantage of the opportunity to use these services without paying for them. "Making it illegal" would mean telling all those users that they can no longer make that choice because the government is taking it away, by passing laws that prevent Big Social Media from offering their services for free. And of course Big Social Media will play that for all it's worth in the political debate that would precede the hypothetical passage of any such law. Not to mention that such a law would also be outlawing all the other tech startups that would benefit from a "freemium" business model. My prediction is that any such law would be taken off the table due to political pressure long before it got anywhere near actually being passed. But in any case, saying that the law is just to "let the market do its job properly" is obviously wrong. "Free market" doesn't mean you get to outlaw freely chosen transactions that you don't like. > If it’s illegal, they would have no other choice would they! If we assume the law you propose actually works and isn't gamed (which is already a big if), my prediction is that Big Social Media would either pivot to some new thing that they could charge for (LLM-based "AI", perhaps), or take their cash and effectively go out of business. I don't think they would just say "oh, well" and actually do the hard work it would take to make all their users paying customers.
    - strogonoff 3y ago
      > actually works and isn't gamed The feeling that law is useless is good for Big Social because it helps uphold the status quo. In practice, companies don’t like doing things that are obviously illegal, especially criminal. For example, do phone operators sell your phone records? No, because the penalty is 10 years in prison. One employee with good ethics or bad mood is enough to land top management in jail. Does “records” mean actual contents of the call? No, it means simply “whom you called and when”. Does social media contain much more sensitive personal information than phone records? Absolutely. If the law does not penalize selling that information, it only means the law is inadequate, not that it is useless. > I don't think they would just say "oh, well" and actually do the hard work it would take to make all their users paying customers. If they won’t, someone else will. It can even be you or me. This is the beauty of free market where honest competition is possible.

aurareturn 3y ago

I think by now, everyone knows how Meta's business model works. No need to explain it. The point isn't that I'm a product or a customer. The point is that given the locked in data that can affect real human lives, Meta and Google ought to put more into the process of reversing erroneously banned accounts. I'm not a law expert. Regardless, it's this person who won the case has done a good thing for all Meta users.

strogonoff 3y ago
> The point is that given the locked in data that can affect real human lives, Meta and Google ought to put more into the process of reversing erroneously banned accounts. There’s many things they could do to affect human lives better, but they have a fiscal responsibility to not spend money on that unless those humans are their paying customers. Again, this is not a charity. This is a legal business, if you don’t like this you should fight for a change to the definition of “legal”.

pdonis 3y ago

> The only way out of this ever-deepening quagmire is to forbid this business model I'm not sure this would actually fix the problem. The existing Big Social companies are so committed to this business model that I don't think they are capable of switching. I think some other company (that doesn't exist now) would have to figure out how to run the all-users-are-paying-customers business model at scale for things like search and social media. But who would run such a company? The company that was in the best position to do this, twenty or so years ago, was...Google. They had the tech resources, and they had the "Don't be evil" motto, which back then they were actually making some effort to live up to. And yet nobody there tried to get this done. Who is going to do it now?

strogonoff 3y ago
By “forbid it” I meant “make it illegal” (not as in “big government tell everyone what to do”, but as in “let the market do its job properly”). If it’s illegal, they would have no other choice would they!
- pdonis 3y ago
  > By “forbid it” I meant “make it illegal” Yes, I understand that. > not as in “big government tell everyone what to do”, but as in “let the market do its job properly” You are missing a crucial point: the current state of Big Social Media is a product of a free market. Users freely choose to take advantage of the opportunity to use these services without paying for them. "Making it illegal" would mean telling all those users that they can no longer make that choice because the government is taking it away, by passing laws that prevent Big Social Media from offering their services for free. And of course Big Social Media will play that for all it's worth in the political debate that would precede the hypothetical passage of any such law. Not to mention that such a law would also be outlawing all the other tech startups that would benefit from a "freemium" business model. My prediction is that any such law would be taken off the table due to political pressure long before it got anywhere near actually being passed. But in any case, saying that the law is just to "let the market do its job properly" is obviously wrong. "Free market" doesn't mean you get to outlaw freely chosen transactions that you don't like. > If it’s illegal, they would have no other choice would they! If we assume the law you propose actually works and isn't gamed (which is already a big if), my prediction is that Big Social Media would either pivot to some new thing that they could charge for (LLM-based "AI", perhaps), or take their cash and effectively go out of business. I don't think they would just say "oh, well" and actually do the hard work it would take to make all their users paying customers.
  - strogonoff 3y ago
    > actually works and isn't gamed The feeling that law is useless is good for Big Social because it helps uphold the status quo. In practice, companies don’t like doing things that are obviously illegal, especially criminal. For example, do phone operators sell your phone records? No, because the penalty is 10 years in prison. One employee with good ethics or bad mood is enough to land top management in jail. Does “records” mean actual contents of the call? No, it means simply “whom you called and when”. Does social media contain much more sensitive personal information than phone records? Absolutely. If the law does not penalize selling that information, it only means the law is inadequate, not that it is useless. > I don't think they would just say "oh, well" and actually do the hard work it would take to make all their users paying customers. If they won’t, someone else will. It can even be you or me. This is the beauty of free market where honest competition is possible.