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> ISIS was defeated in Iraq by a U.S.-led coalition Yeah and who defeated them in Syria? There were two coalitions. French/US led and Syria/Iran led. > The PL

> ISIS was defeated in Iraq by a U.S.-led coalition Yeah and who defeated them in Syria? There were two coalitions. French/US led and Syria/Iran led. > The PLO was willing to negotiate and Hamas is not. In 2014, in a meeting in the UAE post war, Hamas encouraged PLO to reach a political arrangement with Israel on 67 borders. Then in 2017, ratified their charter again to make that point clear. In 2021, Hamas offered to join the PLO and conduct elections, which almost happened only for Israel to not let East Jerusalem residents vote. > subsequently started a massive civil war US and Israel encouraged a coup by Fatah by arming and training the Presidential Guard in opposition to Hamas. > Israel and Ramallah have not Israel has razed Jenin, Tulkarm, and Nablus just this past month with over 50+ dead. > Israel and the PA mutually recognize each other PA is a puppet with bare minimum control over economy, trade, and security of its own people.

reissbaker 3y ago
I'm really not sure why it matters who gets to claim credit in Syria. The point is that the US and its allies used the same tactics as Israel is using in Gaza to defeat ISIS, and I think it's silly to say that the U.S. or Iran or whoever should've just tried dialogue with ISIS. The same is true for Hamas. In 2014, in a meeting in the UAE post war, Hamas encouraged PLO to reach a political arrangement with Israel on 67 borders. Then in 2017, ratified their charter again to make that point clear. In 2021, Hamas offered to join the PLO and conduct elections, which almost happened only for Israel to not let East Jerusalem residents vote. None of these things are Hamas willing to make a permanent peace deal with Israel, which they have repeatedly stated they are not willing to do. After being frustrated by your off-topic or entirely inaccurate responses, I realized I remembered your username, and you have previously tried to claim to me that Hamas was willing to make peace deals and continually failed to back up your claims, along with similar unsourced claims and irrelevant debate points as I'm noticing in this back-and-forth. I am not really interested in having this "discussion" again! Just as then, it is still the case that Abbas cancelled the elections, not Israel, even according to Hamas. I cited Hamas's own public statements, Wikipedia, etc and you are still making this same unsourced assertion that somehow Israel did it. But that's not even relevant! Hamas is very clear that they do not want a permanent peace deal with Israel! By the way, the "PLO" stopped existing a long time before 2014. It's the PA now. Israel has razed Jenin... No, it didn't "raze" Jenin or any other city in the West Bank in "the past month," nor has it razed any city in the West Bank since the end of the Second Intifadah other than its own settlements. It fought a small group of Hamas-aligned terrorists with minimal casualties, agreed upon with the PA. PA is a puppet with bare minimum control over economy, trade, and security of its own people The PA is just the reformed PLO, that you were just saying should supposedly be emulated by Israel and Hamas. And objectively it is doing far better on literally all of those axes — economy, trade, and security — for its own people than Hamas. Anyway, once again I point out: you are unable to say what Israel can actually do to prevent Hamas from repeatedly attacking it, given that Hamas does not want a permanent peace deal with Israel.
- ignoramous 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - reissbaker 3y ago
    Yeah yeah you're still trying to cite the single opinion piece that has no sources for Hamas supposedly being willing to make peace. Hamas's official statements on "peace" are here: https://thehill.com/video/hamas-we-will-repeat-oct-7-terror-again-again-until-we-end-all-of-israel/9134516/ https://thehill.com/video/hamas-we-will-repeat-oct-7-terror-... And their 2017 charter didn't say they were willing to make peace with Israel; in fact it only stated that it was justified to continue fighting Israel as it claims it's an occupying power. Hamas views all of Israel to be "occupied," not just 1967 borders, so that is a call for permanent war. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Hamas_charter https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Hamas_charter Hamas offered to join the PLO No they didn't. Why do you keep claiming that? They ran against Fatah in 2021: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Palestinian_legislative_election https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Palestinian_legislative... And once again, the PLO doesn't exist. Running in PA elections doesn't mean anything about their "peace" plans; they ran in 2006 and certainly had no peace plans then either: they had a charter that literally called for the genocide of the Jews (not Israelis! Not "Zionists." Jews). Brooklyn doesn't get to decide that I am not from Brooklyn, nor is any government involved here based in Brooklyn, so I can only assume you're being rabidly antisemitic here.
    - ignoramous 3y ago
      > And their 2017 charter didn't say they were willing to make peace with Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Hamas_charter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Hamas_charter (ctrl+f peace) > No they didn't. Why do you keep claiming that? They ran against Fatah in 2021 Running against Fatah does not mean they can't join the PLO, which is an umbrella organization for establishing the Palestinian State (made up of several rival political factions): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Liberation_Organization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Liberation_Organizat... > Brooklyn You said Palestinians in the West Bank were objectively "far better", which is completely disregarding their plight against anti-Arab far-right Kahanists (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meir_Kahane https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meir_Kahane originally from Brooklyn) that control those lands. > so I can only assume you're being rabidly antisemitic here Rabidly? There we go. https://mondoweiss.net/2023/09/jewish-settlers-stole-my-house-its-not-my-fault-theyre-jewish/ https://mondoweiss.net/2023/09/jewish-settlers-stole-my-hous... Nothing about the point being made, just a lot of smear.
yyyk 3y ago
>Hamas encouraged PLO to reach a political arrangement with Israel on 67 borders And then to continue the war from these borders. Duh. > ratified their charter again to make that point clear. The one which opposes recognition of Israel and promises to continue the war? >which almost happened only for Israel to not let East Jerusalem residents vote. This isn't true at all. Israeli opposes PA polling stations there. There are other ways to vote (like having the stations inside the EU consulates, or by mail). Which they already used in 2006, so PA is actually fine with this. It's that Abbas will lose to Hamas and everyone knows it, so he needs an lie that uninformed people would swallow. >Israel has razed Jenin, Tulkarm, and Nablus These cities aren't razed by any normal definition of 'razed'. Some people wanted to start another front and got crushed.
- ignoramous 3y ago
  > And then to continue the war from these borders Not a wise move. > opposes recognition... promises war I think you're confusing Likud's charter with Hamas'? > uninformed people would swallow Some say Egypt, Jordan, and Israel equally sabotaged the elections: https://carnegieendowment.org/sada/84509 https://carnegieendowment.org/sada/84509 > Some people wanted to start another front and got crushed Truly crushed, or rather collective punishment / war crimes were the words you were looking for? https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/01/israel-opt-jenin-bloodshed-is-a-horrifying-reminder-of-the-cost-of-impunity/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/01/israel-opt-je...
  - yyyk 3y ago
    >Some say Egypt, Jordan, and Israel equally sabotaged the elections: https://carnegieendowment.org/sada/84509 https://carnegieendowment.org/sada/84509 The entire article is about how nobody buys Abbas' excuses (the other link is similarly not relevant to the discussion).
    - ignoramous 3y ago
      > The entire article is about how nobody buys Abbas... You read it? Egypt & Jordan: The heads of the Egyptian and Jordanian intelligence services, Abbas Kamel and Ahmad Hosni, visited the headquarters of the Palestinian Authority to meet with Abbas in mid-January. The two officials hoped to dissuade Abbas from proceeding to elections... Israel: Meanwhile, Israel strongly opposes any potential Hamas victory in Palestinian elections. In March, the Israeli government dispatched Nadav Argaman, head of the Shin Bet security service, to meet Abbas in his headquarters in Ramallah. Seeing data predicting a huge victory for Hamas and resounding loss for Fatah, Israel made a final effort to persuade Abbas to backtrack on the election move. > the other link is similarly not relevant For almost a year, Jenin refugee camp has been at the centre of Israel's escalating military crackdown... its residents continue to be subjected to relentless military raids which amount to collective punishment. Israel continues to enjoy total impunity for the system of apartheid it imposes on Palestinians – a system which is partly maintained through violations like unlawful killings.

reissbaker 3y ago

I'm really not sure why it matters who gets to claim credit in Syria. The point is that the US and its allies used the same tactics as Israel is using in Gaza to defeat ISIS, and I think it's silly to say that the U.S. or Iran or whoever should've just tried dialogue with ISIS. The same is true for Hamas. In 2014, in a meeting in the UAE post war, Hamas encouraged PLO to reach a political arrangement with Israel on 67 borders. Then in 2017, ratified their charter again to make that point clear. In 2021, Hamas offered to join the PLO and conduct elections, which almost happened only for Israel to not let East Jerusalem residents vote. None of these things are Hamas willing to make a permanent peace deal with Israel, which they have repeatedly stated they are not willing to do. After being frustrated by your off-topic or entirely inaccurate responses, I realized I remembered your username, and you have previously tried to claim to me that Hamas was willing to make peace deals and continually failed to back up your claims, along with similar unsourced claims and irrelevant debate points as I'm noticing in this back-and-forth. I am not really interested in having this "discussion" again! Just as then, it is still the case that Abbas cancelled the elections, not Israel, even according to Hamas. I cited Hamas's own public statements, Wikipedia, etc and you are still making this same unsourced assertion that somehow Israel did it. But that's not even relevant! Hamas is very clear that they do not want a permanent peace deal with Israel! By the way, the "PLO" stopped existing a long time before 2014. It's the PA now. Israel has razed Jenin... No, it didn't "raze" Jenin or any other city in the West Bank in "the past month," nor has it razed any city in the West Bank since the end of the Second Intifadah other than its own settlements. It fought a small group of Hamas-aligned terrorists with minimal casualties, agreed upon with the PA. PA is a puppet with bare minimum control over economy, trade, and security of its own people The PA is just the reformed PLO, that you were just saying should supposedly be emulated by Israel and Hamas. And objectively it is doing far better on literally all of those axes — economy, trade, and security — for its own people than Hamas. Anyway, once again I point out: you are unable to say what Israel can actually do to prevent Hamas from repeatedly attacking it, given that Hamas does not want a permanent peace deal with Israel.

ignoramous 3y ago
[flagged]
- reissbaker 3y ago
  Yeah yeah you're still trying to cite the single opinion piece that has no sources for Hamas supposedly being willing to make peace. Hamas's official statements on "peace" are here: https://thehill.com/video/hamas-we-will-repeat-oct-7-terror-again-again-until-we-end-all-of-israel/9134516/ https://thehill.com/video/hamas-we-will-repeat-oct-7-terror-... And their 2017 charter didn't say they were willing to make peace with Israel; in fact it only stated that it was justified to continue fighting Israel as it claims it's an occupying power. Hamas views all of Israel to be "occupied," not just 1967 borders, so that is a call for permanent war. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Hamas_charter https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Hamas_charter Hamas offered to join the PLO No they didn't. Why do you keep claiming that? They ran against Fatah in 2021: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Palestinian_legislative_election https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Palestinian_legislative... And once again, the PLO doesn't exist. Running in PA elections doesn't mean anything about their "peace" plans; they ran in 2006 and certainly had no peace plans then either: they had a charter that literally called for the genocide of the Jews (not Israelis! Not "Zionists." Jews). Brooklyn doesn't get to decide that I am not from Brooklyn, nor is any government involved here based in Brooklyn, so I can only assume you're being rabidly antisemitic here.
  - ignoramous 3y ago
    > And their 2017 charter didn't say they were willing to make peace with Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Hamas_charter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Hamas_charter (ctrl+f peace) > No they didn't. Why do you keep claiming that? They ran against Fatah in 2021 Running against Fatah does not mean they can't join the PLO, which is an umbrella organization for establishing the Palestinian State (made up of several rival political factions): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Liberation_Organization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Liberation_Organizat... > Brooklyn You said Palestinians in the West Bank were objectively "far better", which is completely disregarding their plight against anti-Arab far-right Kahanists (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meir_Kahane https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meir_Kahane originally from Brooklyn) that control those lands. > so I can only assume you're being rabidly antisemitic here Rabidly? There we go. https://mondoweiss.net/2023/09/jewish-settlers-stole-my-house-its-not-my-fault-theyre-jewish/ https://mondoweiss.net/2023/09/jewish-settlers-stole-my-hous... Nothing about the point being made, just a lot of smear.

yyyk 3y ago

>Hamas encouraged PLO to reach a political arrangement with Israel on 67 borders And then to continue the war from these borders. Duh. > ratified their charter again to make that point clear. The one which opposes recognition of Israel and promises to continue the war? >which almost happened only for Israel to not let East Jerusalem residents vote. This isn't true at all. Israeli opposes PA polling stations there. There are other ways to vote (like having the stations inside the EU consulates, or by mail). Which they already used in 2006, so PA is actually fine with this. It's that Abbas will lose to Hamas and everyone knows it, so he needs an lie that uninformed people would swallow. >Israel has razed Jenin, Tulkarm, and Nablus These cities aren't razed by any normal definition of 'razed'. Some people wanted to start another front and got crushed.

ignoramous 3y ago
> And then to continue the war from these borders Not a wise move. > opposes recognition... promises war I think you're confusing Likud's charter with Hamas'? > uninformed people would swallow Some say Egypt, Jordan, and Israel equally sabotaged the elections: https://carnegieendowment.org/sada/84509 https://carnegieendowment.org/sada/84509 > Some people wanted to start another front and got crushed Truly crushed, or rather collective punishment / war crimes were the words you were looking for? https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/01/israel-opt-jenin-bloodshed-is-a-horrifying-reminder-of-the-cost-of-impunity/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/01/israel-opt-je...
- yyyk 3y ago
  >Some say Egypt, Jordan, and Israel equally sabotaged the elections: https://carnegieendowment.org/sada/84509 https://carnegieendowment.org/sada/84509 The entire article is about how nobody buys Abbas' excuses (the other link is similarly not relevant to the discussion).
  - ignoramous 3y ago
    > The entire article is about how nobody buys Abbas... You read it? Egypt & Jordan: The heads of the Egyptian and Jordanian intelligence services, Abbas Kamel and Ahmad Hosni, visited the headquarters of the Palestinian Authority to meet with Abbas in mid-January. The two officials hoped to dissuade Abbas from proceeding to elections... Israel: Meanwhile, Israel strongly opposes any potential Hamas victory in Palestinian elections. In March, the Israeli government dispatched Nadav Argaman, head of the Shin Bet security service, to meet Abbas in his headquarters in Ramallah. Seeing data predicting a huge victory for Hamas and resounding loss for Fatah, Israel made a final effort to persuade Abbas to backtrack on the election move. > the other link is similarly not relevant For almost a year, Jenin refugee camp has been at the centre of Israel's escalating military crackdown... its residents continue to be subjected to relentless military raids which amount to collective punishment. Israel continues to enjoy total impunity for the system of apartheid it imposes on Palestinians – a system which is partly maintained through violations like unlawful killings.