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Getting caught breaking the rules, and possibly the law, and instead of taking responsibility she blames surveillance that amounts to little more than a smoke d

Getting caught breaking the rules, and possibly the law, and instead of taking responsibility she blames surveillance that amounts to little more than a smoke detector paired with camera systems that are already in place in many (most?) schools. I'm sympathetic with arguments against a lot of the surveillance we see in schools, but it does a great disservice to the anti-surveillance position when you try to use an example where it correctly identifies genuine misconduct. The girl in the article says that this sort of thing doesn't work, yet in the next sentence she admits that it actually did work, "I’m never going to do something like that again, because the repercussions I faced were horrible." The system correctly identified her and as a result she decided to not partake in such behavior in the future. This reads like a young kid who doesn't think her actions should have consequences.

robobro 3y ago
[flagged]
dfee 3y ago
Whether it finds what’s defined as misconduct (or not) is irrelevant. It’s dragnet surveillance: there are inevitably false positives ex picked up. But also, isn’t this a sort of victimless crime? Or is she, herself, the victim? It’s unclear.
- TheFreim 3y ago
  > It’s dragnet surveillance: there are inevitably false positives ex picked up. False positives would only be a problem depending on how exactly the evidence is used. In the first example in the article Iglesias says she learned about the sensors in her own school when an admin came to the restroom after it was triggered. Despite it being triggered by actual vaping, she notes that the admin "ultimately let all the students go" which seems to indicate that, at that school, it wasn't being used blindly to convict students. Could this system be abused or over relied upon? Definitely, but it doesn't seem that false positives are an issue if the school administration has appropriate standards of evidence.
- shusfuejdn 3y ago
  What isn't clear especially is how they know which of the students in the bathroom was vaping. You could maintain plausible deniability by just only going in between classes for instance.
- hn_acker 3y ago
  > But also, isn’t this a sort of victimless crime? Smoking in buildings is not victimless compared to drinking alcohol or even smoking outside away from entrances. Secondhand smoke [1] is more dangerous than it might seem. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_smoking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_smoking
anigbrowl 3y ago
Get real, normal consequences for tiny infractions like this should be getting yelled at by a teacher and having to deal with parents being informed. Ruining people's lives with criminal records is wildly disproportionate to the harm. Attitudes like yours are why the US is a country where I still get asked for ID to buy alcohol in a supermarket even though I'm in my 50s.
- TheFreim 3y ago
  > Ruining people's lives with criminal records is wildly disproportionate to the harm. If I understand the article correctly, it's a misdemeanor and a small fine for nicotine vapes. This is far from ruining someone's life, I know people who got misdemeanors for more serious actions and they didn't have their lives ruined. In the vast majority of cases it does not seem that this is the issue you think it is. If a student is both an adult and is using flagrantly using marijuana in a school, and likely exposing their young friends' developing brains to the substance, then it is completely on them.
DougEiffel 3y ago
I mean, there's something to be said for letting kids get away with shit. The old version of "actions not having consequences" was not getting caught. It can be enriching to rebel a little and get away with stuff. A lot of people grow into perfectly healthy adults and look back fondly on the stunts they pulled. Personally, I don't want my kids using any drugs but I don't think the answer is to put cameras in their rooms or supervising every play date until they're 26. Perhaps the sensible solution is to make sure there is no system where children are getting legal charges for drug use. What an incredibly stupid system. They're kids. They are supposed to be making mistakes and learning from them in low-impact environments until they're old enough to be more responsible for their actions. I am not surprised that kids have moved their social lives online.
hn_acker 3y ago
The HALO Smart Sensor can detect sounds as well. > A leading provider, HALO Smart Sensors, sells 90% to 95% of its sensors to schools. The sensors don’t have cameras or record audio but can detect increases in noise in a school bathroom and send a text alert to school officials, said Rick Cadiz, vice president of sales and marketing for IPVideo, the maker of the HALO sensors. > The sensors are marketed primarily for detecting vape smoke or THC but also can monitor for sounds such as gunshots or keywords indicating possible bullying. Gunshot detection is unreliable [1]. I don't think detecting keywords is much more reliable. Actually, I speculate that detecting keywords is less reliable. [1] https://sls.eff.org/technologies/gunshot-detection https://sls.eff.org/technologies/gunshot-detection
rokkitmensch 3y ago
The American "justice" system operates as a de facto vengeance and punishment system. Thirty days in the alternative school for a student council president taking a smoke break is a ludicrous exercise of discipline and punishment merely for the sake of it. Come on, mandatory minimum sentences for high schoolers? System of a Down was railing against this paradigm when I was a wee misanthrope and it wasn't even novel back then.

robobro 3y ago

[flagged]

dfee 3y ago

Whether it finds what’s defined as misconduct (or not) is irrelevant. It’s dragnet surveillance: there are inevitably false positives ex picked up. But also, isn’t this a sort of victimless crime? Or is she, herself, the victim? It’s unclear.

TheFreim 3y ago
> It’s dragnet surveillance: there are inevitably false positives ex picked up. False positives would only be a problem depending on how exactly the evidence is used. In the first example in the article Iglesias says she learned about the sensors in her own school when an admin came to the restroom after it was triggered. Despite it being triggered by actual vaping, she notes that the admin "ultimately let all the students go" which seems to indicate that, at that school, it wasn't being used blindly to convict students. Could this system be abused or over relied upon? Definitely, but it doesn't seem that false positives are an issue if the school administration has appropriate standards of evidence.
shusfuejdn 3y ago
What isn't clear especially is how they know which of the students in the bathroom was vaping. You could maintain plausible deniability by just only going in between classes for instance.
hn_acker 3y ago
> But also, isn’t this a sort of victimless crime? Smoking in buildings is not victimless compared to drinking alcohol or even smoking outside away from entrances. Secondhand smoke [1] is more dangerous than it might seem. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_smoking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_smoking

anigbrowl 3y ago

Get real, normal consequences for tiny infractions like this should be getting yelled at by a teacher and having to deal with parents being informed. Ruining people's lives with criminal records is wildly disproportionate to the harm. Attitudes like yours are why the US is a country where I still get asked for ID to buy alcohol in a supermarket even though I'm in my 50s.

TheFreim 3y ago
> Ruining people's lives with criminal records is wildly disproportionate to the harm. If I understand the article correctly, it's a misdemeanor and a small fine for nicotine vapes. This is far from ruining someone's life, I know people who got misdemeanors for more serious actions and they didn't have their lives ruined. In the vast majority of cases it does not seem that this is the issue you think it is. If a student is both an adult and is using flagrantly using marijuana in a school, and likely exposing their young friends' developing brains to the substance, then it is completely on them.

DougEiffel 3y ago

I mean, there's something to be said for letting kids get away with shit. The old version of "actions not having consequences" was not getting caught. It can be enriching to rebel a little and get away with stuff. A lot of people grow into perfectly healthy adults and look back fondly on the stunts they pulled. Personally, I don't want my kids using any drugs but I don't think the answer is to put cameras in their rooms or supervising every play date until they're 26. Perhaps the sensible solution is to make sure there is no system where children are getting legal charges for drug use. What an incredibly stupid system. They're kids. They are supposed to be making mistakes and learning from them in low-impact environments until they're old enough to be more responsible for their actions. I am not surprised that kids have moved their social lives online.

hn_acker 3y ago

The HALO Smart Sensor can detect sounds as well. > A leading provider, HALO Smart Sensors, sells 90% to 95% of its sensors to schools. The sensors don’t have cameras or record audio but can detect increases in noise in a school bathroom and send a text alert to school officials, said Rick Cadiz, vice president of sales and marketing for IPVideo, the maker of the HALO sensors. > The sensors are marketed primarily for detecting vape smoke or THC but also can monitor for sounds such as gunshots or keywords indicating possible bullying. Gunshot detection is unreliable [1]. I don't think detecting keywords is much more reliable. Actually, I speculate that detecting keywords is less reliable. [1] https://sls.eff.org/technologies/gunshot-detection https://sls.eff.org/technologies/gunshot-detection

rokkitmensch 3y ago

The American "justice" system operates as a de facto vengeance and punishment system. Thirty days in the alternative school for a student council president taking a smoke break is a ludicrous exercise of discipline and punishment merely for the sake of it. Come on, mandatory minimum sentences for high schoolers? System of a Down was railing against this paradigm when I was a wee misanthrope and it wasn't even novel back then.