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Sure, and the people of Iraq had very legitimate problems with NATO. Nonetheless the West dismantled ISIS. People can have legitimate grievances without committ

Sure, and the people of Iraq had very legitimate problems with NATO. Nonetheless the West dismantled ISIS. People can have legitimate grievances without committing mass murder and rape, and in fact I think the mass murder and rape committed by Hamas have been very counterproductive for the lives of Gazans. What would you have Israel do, that you think would result in it not getting continually attacked by Hamas? Recall that when Israel dismantled its Gazan settlements and withdrew its own citizens at gunpoint nearly 20 years ago — in the hope that would help solve the problem — that's when Hamas took power...

pas 3y ago
Israel needs to treat Palestinians as equals. This should start with not blockading Gaza, rolling back settlements in the West Bank, and so on. Furthermore, supporting those who oppose Hamas instead of playing the dangerous game that now cost tens of thousands of lives. Also, it's important to note that there are no guarantees. Even if Israel (famous hive mind, of course) did everything right there could have been provocation from/via Iran and whatnot.
- reissbaker 3y ago
  Israel dismantled all of its Gazan settlements in 2005 and there had never been a blockade at that point, which is exactly what I just referenced in the post you were responding to. Then Hamas took over Gaza, and Israel and Egypt jointly started blockading it. You can't place the blame for Hamas's rule on the blockade — the blockade (and the settlements) didn't exist when they took power.
  - pas 3y ago
    Hamas' rule is the result of many factors over decades. Obviously the blockade and every other security measure was, at best, short-term responses to Hamas' radicalization, but overall simply one more blow to the fragile illusion of peace, and simply more heat under the pressure cooker of Gaza.
  - ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
    It is reasonable for adjoining countries to control their borders, e.g. Egypt and Israel's borders with Palestine. Countries get to control their borders. Israel takes it a step further and blockades Palestinian access to Palestinian sea routes, something which isn't just a declaration of war, it's an act of war.
ignoramous 3y ago
> Nonetheless the West dismantled ISIS ISIS-K just carried out the worst terrorist attack in Iran (and it was primarily Iran's Q Solemani who dismantled ISIS; later killed by the US Army). Taliban rules Afghanistan again. > What would you have Israel do, that you think would result in it not getting continually attacked by Hamas? Negotiate, like they did with PLO before? > withdrew its own citizens at gunpoint Yeah, cause settlements are a clear breach of International Law. It was no charity. > that's when Hamas took power... Democratically elected, then subsequently undermined and later blockaded.
- reissbaker 3y ago
  ISIS was defeated in Iraq by a U.S.-led coalition: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_against_the_Islamic_State https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_against_the_Islamic_Stat... IDK what your point is with the Taliban, since they're a different group in a different country that isn't allied with ISIS. (And are unrelated to Israel and Gaza.) Negotiate, like they did with the PLO before? The PLO was willing to negotiate and Hamas is not. Hamas has repeatedly said they are not willing to agree to a permanent peace deal with Israel, and have said that they intend to carry out these attacks repeatedly until Israel is destroyed. In this situation, not a hypothetical one where Hamas wants peace, what exactly do you think Israel can do to prevent being attacked? Democratically elected... They won the legislative elections but not the prime ministership and subsequently started a massive civil war with the rest of the PA, which ended up in the PA maintaining control of the West Bank and Hamas controlling Gaza. Which is why Israel and Gaza have gone to war many times, but Israel and Ramallah have not — Israel and the PA mutually recognize each other, albeit with a fair amount of mutual enmity.
  - ignoramous 3y ago
    > ISIS was defeated in Iraq by a U.S.-led coalition Yeah and who defeated them in Syria? There were two coalitions. French/US led and Syria/Iran led. > The PLO was willing to negotiate and Hamas is not. In 2014, in a meeting in the UAE post war, Hamas encouraged PLO to reach a political arrangement with Israel on 67 borders. Then in 2017, ratified their charter again to make that point clear. In 2021, Hamas offered to join the PLO and conduct elections, which almost happened only for Israel to not let East Jerusalem residents vote. > subsequently started a massive civil war US and Israel encouraged a coup by Fatah by arming and training the Presidential Guard in opposition to Hamas. > Israel and Ramallah have not Israel has razed Jenin, Tulkarm, and Nablus just this past month with over 50+ dead. > Israel and the PA mutually recognize each other PA is a puppet with bare minimum control over economy, trade, and security of its own people.

pas 3y ago

Israel needs to treat Palestinians as equals. This should start with not blockading Gaza, rolling back settlements in the West Bank, and so on. Furthermore, supporting those who oppose Hamas instead of playing the dangerous game that now cost tens of thousands of lives. Also, it's important to note that there are no guarantees. Even if Israel (famous hive mind, of course) did everything right there could have been provocation from/via Iran and whatnot.

reissbaker 3y ago
Israel dismantled all of its Gazan settlements in 2005 and there had never been a blockade at that point, which is exactly what I just referenced in the post you were responding to. Then Hamas took over Gaza, and Israel and Egypt jointly started blockading it. You can't place the blame for Hamas's rule on the blockade — the blockade (and the settlements) didn't exist when they took power.
- pas 3y ago
  Hamas' rule is the result of many factors over decades. Obviously the blockade and every other security measure was, at best, short-term responses to Hamas' radicalization, but overall simply one more blow to the fragile illusion of peace, and simply more heat under the pressure cooker of Gaza.
- ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
  It is reasonable for adjoining countries to control their borders, e.g. Egypt and Israel's borders with Palestine. Countries get to control their borders. Israel takes it a step further and blockades Palestinian access to Palestinian sea routes, something which isn't just a declaration of war, it's an act of war.

ignoramous 3y ago

> Nonetheless the West dismantled ISIS ISIS-K just carried out the worst terrorist attack in Iran (and it was primarily Iran's Q Solemani who dismantled ISIS; later killed by the US Army). Taliban rules Afghanistan again. > What would you have Israel do, that you think would result in it not getting continually attacked by Hamas? Negotiate, like they did with PLO before? > withdrew its own citizens at gunpoint Yeah, cause settlements are a clear breach of International Law. It was no charity. > that's when Hamas took power... Democratically elected, then subsequently undermined and later blockaded.

reissbaker 3y ago
ISIS was defeated in Iraq by a U.S.-led coalition: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_against_the_Islamic_State https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_against_the_Islamic_Stat... IDK what your point is with the Taliban, since they're a different group in a different country that isn't allied with ISIS. (And are unrelated to Israel and Gaza.) Negotiate, like they did with the PLO before? The PLO was willing to negotiate and Hamas is not. Hamas has repeatedly said they are not willing to agree to a permanent peace deal with Israel, and have said that they intend to carry out these attacks repeatedly until Israel is destroyed. In this situation, not a hypothetical one where Hamas wants peace, what exactly do you think Israel can do to prevent being attacked? Democratically elected... They won the legislative elections but not the prime ministership and subsequently started a massive civil war with the rest of the PA, which ended up in the PA maintaining control of the West Bank and Hamas controlling Gaza. Which is why Israel and Gaza have gone to war many times, but Israel and Ramallah have not — Israel and the PA mutually recognize each other, albeit with a fair amount of mutual enmity.
- ignoramous 3y ago
  > ISIS was defeated in Iraq by a U.S.-led coalition Yeah and who defeated them in Syria? There were two coalitions. French/US led and Syria/Iran led. > The PLO was willing to negotiate and Hamas is not. In 2014, in a meeting in the UAE post war, Hamas encouraged PLO to reach a political arrangement with Israel on 67 borders. Then in 2017, ratified their charter again to make that point clear. In 2021, Hamas offered to join the PLO and conduct elections, which almost happened only for Israel to not let East Jerusalem residents vote. > subsequently started a massive civil war US and Israel encouraged a coup by Fatah by arming and training the Presidential Guard in opposition to Hamas. > Israel and Ramallah have not Israel has razed Jenin, Tulkarm, and Nablus just this past month with over 50+ dead. > Israel and the PA mutually recognize each other PA is a puppet with bare minimum control over economy, trade, and security of its own people.