3 ms·

The primary problem was always that there are too many parties who have an interest in the existence of Hamas. Put differently, there are too many parties with

The primary problem was always that there are too many parties who have an interest in the existence of Hamas. Put differently, there are too many parties with an interest in using the Palestinians as pawns. Leaving aside the views of any specific Palestinian. As no serious person can dispute the ease of radicalizing destitute people without educations and with PTSD. As long as this is the case, the Palestinians, on the whole, will present as radicalized. The continued goal can't be to use them as pawns. The goal has to be to peacefully save every last remaning Palestinian life, at all costs. In spite of the interests of any of the people who use them. Accomplishing that goal, at all peaceful costs, will be distasteful to both the people who want to sacrifice the Palestinians for Islamic land interests as well as to the people who see them as, at minimum, legitimate collateral damage. But that is what will be required to take Palestinian civilians out of the middle of this endless nightmare.

ignoramous 3y ago
> dispute the ease of radicalizing destitute people without educations and with PTSD Using the same broad stroke generalization and similarly de-humanizing moral compass; how do you judge the society these people celebrating child murder, arson, death, riots, mass executions, hateful incitement belong to: https://twitter.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1723739389262434409 https://twitter.com/muhammadshehad2/status/17237393892624344... > But that is what will be required to take Palestinian civilians out of the middle of this endless nightmare One might say, the chief among requirements is for the occupation of a people who have rejected it every step of the way to end. Everything else is a distraction.
rsoto2 3y ago
The primary problem has been a brutal occupation, apartheid state, and blockade
mjfl 3y ago
“Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas … This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.” - Benjamin Netanyahu https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/20/benjamin-netanyahu-hamas-israel-prime-minister https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/20/benjam...
austin-cheney 3y ago
The problem is tribalism. The primary goal is exclusive dominion, but a distant secondary goal of political and militaristic domination will suffice in the meantime. These aren’t my thoughts or conclusions but the stated goals of several of Israel’s most senior politicians, saying something to the effect of removing the inhabitants so that they can make the desert blossom. The problems here can be solved peacefully and permanently if the dominant faction so wished. The most durable solution is to tear down the walls, annex the occupied territories, and make the Palestinian residents full and equal citizens of Israel. Israel has stated as much directly but refuses that solution because they fear their tribal identity will not longer be a numerical majority. Another less durable solution is a two state solution in opposition to military dominance, but Israel does not want that either. Tribalism. The parallels to the conflict in the Balkans, which was ruled a genocide, are many.
- halflife 3y ago
  Your solution is to make Jews a minority in their own country? The entire reason Israel was created is to have a safe place for Jews to exist and having the power to defend themselves. Imagining that just “tearing down the walls”, and “why can’t we all just gel along” will work is pretty naive, especially considering history .
  - austin-cheney 3y ago
    The solution is to end tribalism, and nothing more. The rest of your comment imagines and argues against something not stated. Do you want peace or domination? You can’t have both, and that is not naive.
    - halflife 3y ago
      Tribalism is human nature. You simply can’t end it. And pointing it as a solution for the Palestinian problem is just as likely as “saying let’s colonize mars”, both are very nice ideas, but only feasible in movies.
      - 3y ago

ignoramous 3y ago

> dispute the ease of radicalizing destitute people without educations and with PTSD Using the same broad stroke generalization and similarly de-humanizing moral compass; how do you judge the society these people celebrating child murder, arson, death, riots, mass executions, hateful incitement belong to: https://twitter.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1723739389262434409 https://twitter.com/muhammadshehad2/status/17237393892624344... > But that is what will be required to take Palestinian civilians out of the middle of this endless nightmare One might say, the chief among requirements is for the occupation of a people who have rejected it every step of the way to end. Everything else is a distraction.

rsoto2 3y ago

The primary problem has been a brutal occupation, apartheid state, and blockade

mjfl 3y ago

“Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas … This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.” - Benjamin Netanyahu https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/20/benjamin-netanyahu-hamas-israel-prime-minister https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/20/benjam...

austin-cheney 3y ago

The problem is tribalism. The primary goal is exclusive dominion, but a distant secondary goal of political and militaristic domination will suffice in the meantime. These aren’t my thoughts or conclusions but the stated goals of several of Israel’s most senior politicians, saying something to the effect of removing the inhabitants so that they can make the desert blossom. The problems here can be solved peacefully and permanently if the dominant faction so wished. The most durable solution is to tear down the walls, annex the occupied territories, and make the Palestinian residents full and equal citizens of Israel. Israel has stated as much directly but refuses that solution because they fear their tribal identity will not longer be a numerical majority. Another less durable solution is a two state solution in opposition to military dominance, but Israel does not want that either. Tribalism. The parallels to the conflict in the Balkans, which was ruled a genocide, are many.

halflife 3y ago
Your solution is to make Jews a minority in their own country? The entire reason Israel was created is to have a safe place for Jews to exist and having the power to defend themselves. Imagining that just “tearing down the walls”, and “why can’t we all just gel along” will work is pretty naive, especially considering history .
- austin-cheney 3y ago
  The solution is to end tribalism, and nothing more. The rest of your comment imagines and argues against something not stated. Do you want peace or domination? You can’t have both, and that is not naive.
  - halflife 3y ago
    Tribalism is human nature. You simply can’t end it. And pointing it as a solution for the Palestinian problem is just as likely as “saying let’s colonize mars”, both are very nice ideas, but only feasible in movies.
    - 3y ago