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"dont let gazans interact with Israelis" is exactly the definition of apartheid though, unless you're advocating recognising Palestine, and giving them autonomy

"dont let gazans interact with Israelis" is exactly the definition of apartheid though, unless you're advocating recognising Palestine, and giving them autonomy wrt water, electricity and so on. However the comment "ensuring no Gazans ever escape again." Is rather telling, it implies a recognition that Gaza is effectively a prison - dehumanisation like that fosters this sort of conflict, so really this sort of attitude is far less helpful than say learning from lessons in Japan and Germany post WW2, South Africa post-apartheid and so on.

HDThoreaun 3y ago
Gaza absolutely is a prison. Keeping Gazans there is the only way to ensure Israelis safety. Is that unfair? Absolutely, but I dont think Israelis are especially interested in fairness here, theyre interested in their security. You cant compare Gaza to post ww2 countries. Gaza has no economy, and a vastly different culture. There is no path toward peace between gaza and Israel. Not even on the 1000 year time span, because that would require gazan quality of life to improve, and they just dont have the land or resources for that to happen.
- vcryan 3y ago
  Why are we more concerned about the safety of Israelis than the safety of Palestinians?
  - HDThoreaun 3y ago
    Im concerned with realistic solutions. Israel has all the power here, the reality is that any solution will be one that benefits them, and hopefully palestinians are willing to go along with.
    - nerpderp82 3y ago
      I have spent days researching the history of this. The problem in its entirety is Zionism. The only way for Zionism to remain, is for Israel to be permanently at war. Research Likud, read about Netanyahu, Zionism is the contagion and a Forever War is their answer. Should the Palestinians have agency and self determination?
      - HDThoreaun 3y ago
        > Should the Palestinians have agency and self determination? It doesnt matter what they "should" have. Israel wont give it to them while they think it would undermine their security, and no one has the ability to force them to.
        nerpderp82 3y ago
        Sure it does! If we can't agree on what should be, we can never make anything happen. And we all do have agency on how the Palestinians are treated. To deny that is to be complicit.
        SomeoneFromCA 3y ago
        Of course West has the power. The generational shift in US is very clear - GenZ openly does not want to have anyrhing to do with israel. It will carry on and increase with everry next generation. How are you gonna sustain israel in this kind of enviromnent?
        weatherlite 3y ago
        I don't know, it's a good question and it might be unsustainable. Another question is how do you dismantle a country threatened by war and genocidal intentions on all borders , a country that's a nuclear power? What's the end game here - let Israel die and hope the population makes it out OK and that Palestinians happily co exist with Israelis? While some use South Africa as an example where this happened peacefully, there are many more examples where this ended up in a huge massacres - Yugoslavia, Syria, Iraq etc. The realistic best case scenario for Israel is Israel collapsing and the vast majority of the Jews fleeing alive to wherever they can. Other scenarios are Jews getting massacred in huge numbers and even nuclear war.
        SomeoneFromCA 3y ago
        The way things are going, the earlier West understands/accepts insustainability of current israel, the less bloody will be the end result. israel could even survive as a Jewish state, but that would require massive diplomatic effort of many forces.
    - mkoubaa 3y ago
      I agree, any solution that is unpopular to Israelis will be opposed by their democratically elected government that happens to have the military power to prevent it. Even if people elsewhere don't like it
    - vcryan 3y ago
      Israel doesn't doesn't have to use its power for ethnic cleansing and genocide forever.
    - int_19h 3y ago
      Israel can be forced into concessions just as South Africa was, if external actors - most notably, US - stop bankrolling them, and start applying sanctions instead. It only has all the power because others let it have that power, and even contribute directly to increasing said power.
      - HDThoreaun 3y ago
        I disagree. Israel is self sufficient and has a much stronger economy than SA ever did. Israel also now has substantial oil reserves which makes sanctions difficult. Israels military is completely sufficient and would be able to oppress palestine just fine without international support. In my estimation the only thing sanctions would do is push Israel toward its final solution to the palestinian problem as they no longer see a downside to ending the issue once and for all. Israel has nuclear weapons, its not possible to actually force them to do anything.
        Sabinus 3y ago
        >In my estimation the only thing sanctions would do is push Israel toward its final solution to the palestinian problem as they no longer see a downside to ending the issue once and for all. Now that's an interesting thought, I hadn't considered that as a consequence of the US pushing too hard.
        weatherlite 3y ago
        We don't have much oil, we do have gas reserves. Whatever you fill up your car with - we don't have. Last I heard we import our oil from Azerbijan - a friendly Muslim country with common enemies. Also most calories e.g food are imported. Most agricultural fertilizers, chips and electronics for missiles, cars etc etc. There is talk now in Israel of becoming more independent - especially in regards to arms, but it's going to take a long time and I'm not positive how well Israel can make it. It's a very small country after all. Israel needs to deal with Iran who is supported by Russia and to a lesser extent by China. How long can Israel make it alone against the world's biggest superpowers without the U.S on its side? And even if Israel can make it like North Korea, I don't think most Israelis would want that kind of life of being completely isolated from the world. If Israeli existence is reduced to isolation and extreme poverty - most would give up I think.
  - halflife 3y ago
    Because the Palestinian government in Gaza kidnaps babies. And they claimed they would do it again and again until all of Israel is Palestine. You haven’t heard anything even remotely as dangerous from Israeli official statements, let alone action.
    - alexisread 3y ago
      Erm, https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/11/22/23972908/palestinian-prisoners-israel-administrative-detention https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/11/22/23972908/pales... Children are detained for years under this law. https://www.axios.com/2023/03/20/bezalel-smotrich-jordan-greater-israel-map-palestinians https://www.axios.com/2023/03/20/bezalel-smotrich-jordan-gre... This is incitement. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-67926799 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-67926799 Denying access to water is a war crime, and is acknowledged to have happened here. There are links here, where are yours to prove your assertions?
- weatherlite 3y ago
  > Is that unfair? Absolutely What's fair to you then? What's the fair solution?

HDThoreaun 3y ago

Gaza absolutely is a prison. Keeping Gazans there is the only way to ensure Israelis safety. Is that unfair? Absolutely, but I dont think Israelis are especially interested in fairness here, theyre interested in their security. You cant compare Gaza to post ww2 countries. Gaza has no economy, and a vastly different culture. There is no path toward peace between gaza and Israel. Not even on the 1000 year time span, because that would require gazan quality of life to improve, and they just dont have the land or resources for that to happen.

vcryan 3y ago
Why are we more concerned about the safety of Israelis than the safety of Palestinians?
- HDThoreaun 3y ago
  Im concerned with realistic solutions. Israel has all the power here, the reality is that any solution will be one that benefits them, and hopefully palestinians are willing to go along with.
  - nerpderp82 3y ago
    I have spent days researching the history of this. The problem in its entirety is Zionism. The only way for Zionism to remain, is for Israel to be permanently at war. Research Likud, read about Netanyahu, Zionism is the contagion and a Forever War is their answer. Should the Palestinians have agency and self determination?
    - HDThoreaun 3y ago
      > Should the Palestinians have agency and self determination? It doesnt matter what they "should" have. Israel wont give it to them while they think it would undermine their security, and no one has the ability to force them to.
      - nerpderp82 3y ago
        Sure it does! If we can't agree on what should be, we can never make anything happen. And we all do have agency on how the Palestinians are treated. To deny that is to be complicit.
      - SomeoneFromCA 3y ago
        Of course West has the power. The generational shift in US is very clear - GenZ openly does not want to have anyrhing to do with israel. It will carry on and increase with everry next generation. How are you gonna sustain israel in this kind of enviromnent?
        weatherlite 3y ago
        I don't know, it's a good question and it might be unsustainable. Another question is how do you dismantle a country threatened by war and genocidal intentions on all borders , a country that's a nuclear power? What's the end game here - let Israel die and hope the population makes it out OK and that Palestinians happily co exist with Israelis? While some use South Africa as an example where this happened peacefully, there are many more examples where this ended up in a huge massacres - Yugoslavia, Syria, Iraq etc. The realistic best case scenario for Israel is Israel collapsing and the vast majority of the Jews fleeing alive to wherever they can. Other scenarios are Jews getting massacred in huge numbers and even nuclear war.
        SomeoneFromCA 3y ago
        The way things are going, the earlier West understands/accepts insustainability of current israel, the less bloody will be the end result. israel could even survive as a Jewish state, but that would require massive diplomatic effort of many forces.
  - mkoubaa 3y ago
    I agree, any solution that is unpopular to Israelis will be opposed by their democratically elected government that happens to have the military power to prevent it. Even if people elsewhere don't like it
  - vcryan 3y ago
    Israel doesn't doesn't have to use its power for ethnic cleansing and genocide forever.
  - int_19h 3y ago
    Israel can be forced into concessions just as South Africa was, if external actors - most notably, US - stop bankrolling them, and start applying sanctions instead. It only has all the power because others let it have that power, and even contribute directly to increasing said power.
    - HDThoreaun 3y ago
      I disagree. Israel is self sufficient and has a much stronger economy than SA ever did. Israel also now has substantial oil reserves which makes sanctions difficult. Israels military is completely sufficient and would be able to oppress palestine just fine without international support. In my estimation the only thing sanctions would do is push Israel toward its final solution to the palestinian problem as they no longer see a downside to ending the issue once and for all. Israel has nuclear weapons, its not possible to actually force them to do anything.
      - Sabinus 3y ago
        >In my estimation the only thing sanctions would do is push Israel toward its final solution to the palestinian problem as they no longer see a downside to ending the issue once and for all. Now that's an interesting thought, I hadn't considered that as a consequence of the US pushing too hard.
      - weatherlite 3y ago
        We don't have much oil, we do have gas reserves. Whatever you fill up your car with - we don't have. Last I heard we import our oil from Azerbijan - a friendly Muslim country with common enemies. Also most calories e.g food are imported. Most agricultural fertilizers, chips and electronics for missiles, cars etc etc. There is talk now in Israel of becoming more independent - especially in regards to arms, but it's going to take a long time and I'm not positive how well Israel can make it. It's a very small country after all. Israel needs to deal with Iran who is supported by Russia and to a lesser extent by China. How long can Israel make it alone against the world's biggest superpowers without the U.S on its side? And even if Israel can make it like North Korea, I don't think most Israelis would want that kind of life of being completely isolated from the world. If Israeli existence is reduced to isolation and extreme poverty - most would give up I think.
- halflife 3y ago
  Because the Palestinian government in Gaza kidnaps babies. And they claimed they would do it again and again until all of Israel is Palestine. You haven’t heard anything even remotely as dangerous from Israeli official statements, let alone action.
  - alexisread 3y ago
    Erm, https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/11/22/23972908/palestinian-prisoners-israel-administrative-detention https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/11/22/23972908/pales... Children are detained for years under this law. https://www.axios.com/2023/03/20/bezalel-smotrich-jordan-greater-israel-map-palestinians https://www.axios.com/2023/03/20/bezalel-smotrich-jordan-gre... This is incitement. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-67926799 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-67926799 Denying access to water is a war crime, and is acknowledged to have happened here. There are links here, where are yours to prove your assertions?
weatherlite 3y ago
> Is that unfair? Absolutely What's fair to you then? What's the fair solution?