8 ms·

Isn't that exactly the view of reality that the Israeli right wing holds? They would agree that the choices are either dismantling the state of Israel, or etern

by lacker 3y ago

Isn't that exactly the view of reality that the Israeli right wing holds? They would agree that the choices are either dismantling the state of Israel, or eternal warfare. Since they don't want to dismantle the state of Israel, they elect for eternal warfare. It's funny how on some questions, the most extreme people on both sides agree on the answer. Hamas and the Israeli right wing both agree that the only viable solution is for one ethnic group to control all the land from the river to the sea.

hypeit 3y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > They just want Palestinians to have full human rights on their land, from the river to the sea This is presumably a one-state solution? The problem here being the Jews would be a minority in this state. Which leads to existential concerns regarding their survival. That can’t be easily brushed aside. Particularly when members of Iran’s Axis sport “death to Israel, a curse upon Jews” [1]. (Hamas and the Houthis sharing a backer isn’t insignificant.) [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slogan_of_the_Houthi_movement https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slogan_of_the_Houthi_movemen...
- YZF 3y ago
  I feel that's an extremely naive view. How many Jews live peacefully and enjoy human rights under Arab rule in the middle east? Zero. How many in Gaza under Hamas? Zero. How many live in the west bank in areas controlled by the Palestinian Authority? Zero. So "Hamas" only wants Tel-Aviv "returned", Jersualem "returned", Haifa "returned", from the river to the sea, but somehow in that vision all the Jewish population lives peacefully and enjoys human rights that don't exist anywhere in the middle east?
  - runarberg 3y ago
    The West Bank holds the forth largest Jewish population in the world, after France. Now the West Bank is occupied territory, controlled by Israel, so perhaps that doesn’t count. According to this Wikipedia article[1] there are around 2-3000 jewish people living in Morocco, 1-2000 in Tunisia, and about 100 in Syria and Lebanon (not including the Golan Heights). I am aware that there were persecutions in the past in many Arabic countries, but the same is true of Europe. Beirut even restored one of their last Synagogues in 2010 after it was damaged, ironically, in an Israeli airstrike. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_country
    - YZF 3y ago
      My point was specific to Palestinian Authority controlled areas of the west bank. My second point (maybe not so obvious) was about human rights situations in the Arab world and under Palestinian rule. e.g. the Jews living in Morocco can't elect their government because Morocco is a dictatorship ("Monarchy"), ruled by a king. I.e. there's no Jews living under Arab rule while meeting those two conditions. Being able to live in a democratic, free, country with human rights, and under Arab or Palestinian rule. I was well aware there is some (tiny) Jewish population in some Arab countries.
      - runarberg 3y ago
        You could say the same of Europe prior to 1945. However today hundreds of thousands of Jewish people live in Europe enjoy equal rights and democracy. What makes you think that Palestine can’t become one of those countries if ever allowed to be democratic and independent?
        int_19h 3y ago
        Would it be democratic if it became independent, though? Hamas specifically came to power via elections, but hasn't held any elections since then under various excuses, so they clearly aren't champions of democracy.
- pgeorgi 3y ago
  > They just want Palestinians to have full human rights on their land, from the river to the sea. What's the word for word translation of the original slogan again? "From the river to the sea, all land shall be Arab" if my dictionary doesn't fail me...
- Wytwwww 3y ago
  > They just want Palestinians to have full human rights Hamas certainly doesn't want Palestinians to have full human rights. Regardless of how unjustifiable some Israel's actions are or what one might think about them Hamas is a fundamentalist terrorist organization and they certainly were/are/would be unwilling to extend "full human rights" to Palestinians or anyone living in Gaza or anywhere else.
- kansface 3y ago
  The charter of Hamas explicitly calls for the eradication of the state of Israel, the death of presumably all Jews, Muslim rule of all of Palestine, the explicit rejection of peace or any negotiated settlement (with explicit condemnation of the Camp David Accords), and Jihad as individual duty in order to achieve the aforementioned goals.
  - krainboltgreene 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - tptacek 3y ago
      Hamas has repeatedly refused to disavow the original charter, and, of course, their actions on October 7 certainly affirm it.
      - krainboltgreene 3y ago
        [flagged]
        tptacek 3y ago
        They killed 1200 people, most of them civilians, raped dozens (at least), filmed murders and posted those videos to the victims Facebook pages. I am, in this one instance, comfortable with the application of Cancel Culture. There is no advocacy one can pursue more antithetical to the cause of Palestinian human rights than to cheerlead for Hamas.
        krainboltgreene 3y ago
        This comment is in bad faith, it is attempting to paint my retort as cheerleading for Hamas despite the actual content of my comment. You can do better than this, maybe.
        3y ago
- cassepipe 3y ago
  That's certainly what you (and me) would very much like Hamas to want but it is certainly not what Hamas actually wants You can only ignore who they are if you don't listen to what they say
- loandbehold 3y ago
  Read Hamas' charter, they are open about their goals: to kill or expel Jews from the river to the sea.
  - gafferongames 3y ago
    Bingo
  - rsoto2 3y ago
    This is also in the Likud(Israeli far-right party charter) and actually denotes even more land in the region(Jordan) as property of Israel.
    - halflife 3y ago
      The likud is not far right, it’s just a right wing party. There are other far right parties. Can you link me to that part of the likud charter? Because the one I’ve read mentions none of that.
      - rsoto2 3y ago
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8V96T8rIkFc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8V96T8rIkFc
- bitcurious 3y ago
  >They just want Palestinians to have full human rights on their land, from the river to the sea. What about the rights to elections? Free speech? To be gay and not be thrown off a building? They don't even support these basic human rights in the land they rule, for the people they claim as their own.
gizmo 3y ago
No. The Israeli right wing is trying (and succeeding at) making all of the land between the river and the sea exclusive property of the Jewish people. A quick glance at how the borders have evolved since 1948 makes this evident. Most Palestinians (and thankfully also a good number of Israeli citizens) want a pluralistic solution, without checkpoints and borders, with equal rights and equal representation for all. A two-state solution was possible 20 years ago, but with the current settlements in the West Bank with 450k or so Settlers and Gaza's total dependence on Israel for water, internet, electricity and many other of life's necessities, all paths towards a two-state solution have been severed. Now that Gaza has been bombed and bulldozed what possibility is there for a Palestinian state? All records have been destroyed. The courts are gone. The universities are gone. It's all gone. Israel will accept neither a one-state or two-state solution. By systematically destroying everything Palestinian the question resolves itself. That seems to be the strategy. And if we can take Israeli politicians at their word, this seems to have been the strategy for the past 20 years at least.
- cassepipe 3y ago
  While I mostly agree with you, your point does not seem to contradict at all the point of the comment you are responding to
  - gizmo 3y ago
    I don't think it makes sense to talk about what the extremists in a conflict want when one side is a regional superpower and the other side has no army to speak of (that's why Hamas hides in tunnels). It's about what the parties can actually accomplish. Hamas gambles on international sympathy because they cannot do anything militarily. They have no bargaining leverage either during possible peace talks. I don't approve of antisemitic slogans wishing for the destruction of Israel but the world will never allow it to happen. Never. Zero chance of that happening. So while extremists on both sides are the same in the abstract, only one side is facing possible extermination.
    - dijit 3y ago

by lacker 3y ago

hypeit 3y ago

[flagged]

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> They just want Palestinians to have full human rights on their land, from the river to the sea This is presumably a one-state solution? The problem here being the Jews would be a minority in this state. Which leads to existential concerns regarding their survival. That can’t be easily brushed aside. Particularly when members of Iran’s Axis sport “death to Israel, a curse upon Jews” [1]. (Hamas and the Houthis sharing a backer isn’t insignificant.) [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slogan_of_the_Houthi_movement https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slogan_of_the_Houthi_movemen...
YZF 3y ago
I feel that's an extremely naive view. How many Jews live peacefully and enjoy human rights under Arab rule in the middle east? Zero. How many in Gaza under Hamas? Zero. How many live in the west bank in areas controlled by the Palestinian Authority? Zero. So "Hamas" only wants Tel-Aviv "returned", Jersualem "returned", Haifa "returned", from the river to the sea, but somehow in that vision all the Jewish population lives peacefully and enjoys human rights that don't exist anywhere in the middle east?
- runarberg 3y ago
  The West Bank holds the forth largest Jewish population in the world, after France. Now the West Bank is occupied territory, controlled by Israel, so perhaps that doesn’t count. According to this Wikipedia article[1] there are around 2-3000 jewish people living in Morocco, 1-2000 in Tunisia, and about 100 in Syria and Lebanon (not including the Golan Heights). I am aware that there were persecutions in the past in many Arabic countries, but the same is true of Europe. Beirut even restored one of their last Synagogues in 2010 after it was damaged, ironically, in an Israeli airstrike. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_country
  - YZF 3y ago
    My point was specific to Palestinian Authority controlled areas of the west bank. My second point (maybe not so obvious) was about human rights situations in the Arab world and under Palestinian rule. e.g. the Jews living in Morocco can't elect their government because Morocco is a dictatorship ("Monarchy"), ruled by a king. I.e. there's no Jews living under Arab rule while meeting those two conditions. Being able to live in a democratic, free, country with human rights, and under Arab or Palestinian rule. I was well aware there is some (tiny) Jewish population in some Arab countries.
    - runarberg 3y ago
      You could say the same of Europe prior to 1945. However today hundreds of thousands of Jewish people live in Europe enjoy equal rights and democracy. What makes you think that Palestine can’t become one of those countries if ever allowed to be democratic and independent?
      - int_19h 3y ago
        Would it be democratic if it became independent, though? Hamas specifically came to power via elections, but hasn't held any elections since then under various excuses, so they clearly aren't champions of democracy.
pgeorgi 3y ago
> They just want Palestinians to have full human rights on their land, from the river to the sea. What's the word for word translation of the original slogan again? "From the river to the sea, all land shall be Arab" if my dictionary doesn't fail me...
Wytwwww 3y ago
> They just want Palestinians to have full human rights Hamas certainly doesn't want Palestinians to have full human rights. Regardless of how unjustifiable some Israel's actions are or what one might think about them Hamas is a fundamentalist terrorist organization and they certainly were/are/would be unwilling to extend "full human rights" to Palestinians or anyone living in Gaza or anywhere else.
kansface 3y ago
The charter of Hamas explicitly calls for the eradication of the state of Israel, the death of presumably all Jews, Muslim rule of all of Palestine, the explicit rejection of peace or any negotiated settlement (with explicit condemnation of the Camp David Accords), and Jihad as individual duty in order to achieve the aforementioned goals.
- krainboltgreene 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - tptacek 3y ago
    Hamas has repeatedly refused to disavow the original charter, and, of course, their actions on October 7 certainly affirm it.
    - krainboltgreene 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - tptacek 3y ago
        They killed 1200 people, most of them civilians, raped dozens (at least), filmed murders and posted those videos to the victims Facebook pages. I am, in this one instance, comfortable with the application of Cancel Culture. There is no advocacy one can pursue more antithetical to the cause of Palestinian human rights than to cheerlead for Hamas.
        krainboltgreene 3y ago
        This comment is in bad faith, it is attempting to paint my retort as cheerleading for Hamas despite the actual content of my comment. You can do better than this, maybe.
        3y ago
cassepipe 3y ago
That's certainly what you (and me) would very much like Hamas to want but it is certainly not what Hamas actually wants You can only ignore who they are if you don't listen to what they say
loandbehold 3y ago
Read Hamas' charter, they are open about their goals: to kill or expel Jews from the river to the sea.
- gafferongames 3y ago
  Bingo
- rsoto2 3y ago
  This is also in the Likud(Israeli far-right party charter) and actually denotes even more land in the region(Jordan) as property of Israel.
  - halflife 3y ago
    The likud is not far right, it’s just a right wing party. There are other far right parties. Can you link me to that part of the likud charter? Because the one I’ve read mentions none of that.
    - rsoto2 3y ago
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8V96T8rIkFc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8V96T8rIkFc
bitcurious 3y ago
>They just want Palestinians to have full human rights on their land, from the river to the sea. What about the rights to elections? Free speech? To be gay and not be thrown off a building? They don't even support these basic human rights in the land they rule, for the people they claim as their own.

gizmo 3y ago

No. The Israeli right wing is trying (and succeeding at) making all of the land between the river and the sea exclusive property of the Jewish people. A quick glance at how the borders have evolved since 1948 makes this evident. Most Palestinians (and thankfully also a good number of Israeli citizens) want a pluralistic solution, without checkpoints and borders, with equal rights and equal representation for all. A two-state solution was possible 20 years ago, but with the current settlements in the West Bank with 450k or so Settlers and Gaza's total dependence on Israel for water, internet, electricity and many other of life's necessities, all paths towards a two-state solution have been severed. Now that Gaza has been bombed and bulldozed what possibility is there for a Palestinian state? All records have been destroyed. The courts are gone. The universities are gone. It's all gone. Israel will accept neither a one-state or two-state solution. By systematically destroying everything Palestinian the question resolves itself. That seems to be the strategy. And if we can take Israeli politicians at their word, this seems to have been the strategy for the past 20 years at least.

cassepipe 3y ago
While I mostly agree with you, your point does not seem to contradict at all the point of the comment you are responding to
- gizmo 3y ago
  I don't think it makes sense to talk about what the extremists in a conflict want when one side is a regional superpower and the other side has no army to speak of (that's why Hamas hides in tunnels). It's about what the parties can actually accomplish. Hamas gambles on international sympathy because they cannot do anything militarily. They have no bargaining leverage either during possible peace talks. I don't approve of antisemitic slogans wishing for the destruction of Israel but the world will never allow it to happen. Never. Zero chance of that happening. So while extremists on both sides are the same in the abstract, only one side is facing possible extermination.
  - dijit 3y ago