4 ms·

> The law of retaliation is a never-ending cycle. Well, there are ways to end it. Historically there have been thousands of cyclical conflicts that eventually

> The law of retaliation is a never-ending cycle. Well, there are ways to end it. Historically there have been thousands of cyclical conflicts that eventually ended without a diplomatic solution.

locallost 3y ago
In this situation I disagree. The world is overwhelmingly pro Palestine, and the Arab world obviously. They will not go away. Israel will not go away either.
- eej71 3y ago
  They don't have to go away. But, I think its reasonable to assert that the Arab world desperately needs to become more secularized. Most of the Arab world is deeply anti-semitic, deeply tribal (even amongst themselves), and deeply backwards in their orientation to what makes a free society possible. In that sense, the palestinians need a big cultural change.
  - octopoc 3y ago
    That might have happened if Israel hadn't interfered to deny Gazans any alternative to Hamas. Presumably they hoped that would cripple Gaza even more. https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up... https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-q... https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-netanyahu-bolstered-hamas/ https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-netanyahu-bolste... https://theintercept.com/2023/10/14/hamas-israel-palestinian-authority/ https://theintercept.com/2023/10/14/hamas-israel-palestinian...
    - starik36 3y ago
      These are all op-eds. Opinions, not facts. That's one. Secondly, for some of the links, if you follow the logic, they are suggesting that Israel should have gone to war with Hamas earlier and eliminated it. Thirdly, what exactly are you suggesting Israel should have done earlier in relation to Gaza and Hamas? You probably don't know. Neither do I. If we did, other smarter people would have too and it would have probably been implemented already.
      - SirSavary 3y ago
        Benjamin Netanyahu encouraging the funding of Hamas via Qatar is not an opinion, it's a fact. The situation Israel is dealing with right now is entirely of their own making; it's called blowback.
        starik36 3y ago
        See...you are taking something that did happen and twisting it to fit your bias. The money from Qatar had humanitarian goals like paying government salaries in Gaza and buying fuel to keep a power plant running. Obviously, the money was misused and spent on building rockets and missiles. But also a portion was spent on what Qatar intended. The rationale at the time (this was not a secret deal or anything like that) was that Qatar money is going to make it to Gaza one way or another anyway - it's better if Israel knows about it. And somehow throwing Netanyahu into the mix is just meant to have some people see red. He was out of power for a year and a half. Surely if it was his personal agenda, the govt that took over after him would stop the payments. They didn't. But I agree with you that no matter how you twist it, it's definitely a blowback.
        eej71 3y ago
        If Israel is guilty of a sin, they are guilty of moral appeasement. They need to stop giving sanction to their destroyers.
        SomeoneFromCA 3y ago
        Ben Gvir, Smotrich were all foaming in their mouths how great Hamas is for israel.
  - vcryan 3y ago
    Where are you getting this information? Arab don't "need to become secularized" -- why? To make you happy? Being Muslim doesn't make a person anti-Jewish. It is extremely bizarre that you are calling for an entire group of millions of people to change their culture.
    - eej71 3y ago
      As one source, I'd highly recommend Unveiled: How Western Liberals Empower Radical Islam. Yasmine Mohammed provides some first hand experiences here. https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/49645708 https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/49645708
- Wytwwww 3y ago
  > The world is overwhelmingly pro Palestine That's arguable, certainly in the west at least. Even if most people oppose the current war/atrocities that doesn't mean that they generally favour Palestine (or especially Hamas..) over Israel (.e.g. like you didn't have to be pro-Sadam to oppose the war in Iraq).
  - vcryan 3y ago
    The world is pro-justice. At the moment, Israel's genocide and the long-term brutal occupation have caused anyone to pay attention to support Palestine.
    - starik36 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - nerpderp82 3y ago
        Watch the closing remarks, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttrJd2aWF-Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttrJd2aWF-Y it is short. And then the whole thing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FryDCvI7YLo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FryDCvI7YLo https://web.archive.org/web/20240125185410/https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2024/01/11/who-is-the-irish-lawyer-arguing-for-south-africas-genocide-case-against-israel/ https://web.archive.org/web/20240125185410/https://www.irish...
        starik36 3y ago
        It's remarks by the plaintiff's attorney meant to elicit emotion. It includes zero context. Who died - were they militants with guns? Were they civilian casualties of war? No one knows. Just a bizarre connection between Bethlehem and Gaza. Bethlehem is not in Gaza. I am not sure what facts I am supposed to gather from this.
        nerpderp82 3y ago
        Of course it was, those were the closing remarks. You can watch the full speech which gives you the argument spelled out. Or read South Africa's case https://www.icj-cij.org/case/192 https://www.icj-cij.org/case/192 Ms Ní Ghrálaigh's pedigree in addressing genocide is extensive, as mentioned in the linked article. One can only counter misdirection with facts. There is a Zionist genocide of Palestinians going on right now in Gaza.

> The law of retaliation is a never-ending cycle. Well, there are ways to end it. Historically there have been thousands of cyclical conflicts that eventually ended without a diplomatic solution.

locallost 3y ago

In this situation I disagree. The world is overwhelmingly pro Palestine, and the Arab world obviously. They will not go away. Israel will not go away either.

eej71 3y ago
They don't have to go away. But, I think its reasonable to assert that the Arab world desperately needs to become more secularized. Most of the Arab world is deeply anti-semitic, deeply tribal (even amongst themselves), and deeply backwards in their orientation to what makes a free society possible. In that sense, the palestinians need a big cultural change.
- octopoc 3y ago
  That might have happened if Israel hadn't interfered to deny Gazans any alternative to Hamas. Presumably they hoped that would cripple Gaza even more. https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up... https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-q... https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-netanyahu-bolstered-hamas/ https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-netanyahu-bolste... https://theintercept.com/2023/10/14/hamas-israel-palestinian-authority/ https://theintercept.com/2023/10/14/hamas-israel-palestinian...
  - starik36 3y ago
    These are all op-eds. Opinions, not facts. That's one. Secondly, for some of the links, if you follow the logic, they are suggesting that Israel should have gone to war with Hamas earlier and eliminated it. Thirdly, what exactly are you suggesting Israel should have done earlier in relation to Gaza and Hamas? You probably don't know. Neither do I. If we did, other smarter people would have too and it would have probably been implemented already.
    - SirSavary 3y ago
      Benjamin Netanyahu encouraging the funding of Hamas via Qatar is not an opinion, it's a fact. The situation Israel is dealing with right now is entirely of their own making; it's called blowback.
      - starik36 3y ago
        See...you are taking something that did happen and twisting it to fit your bias. The money from Qatar had humanitarian goals like paying government salaries in Gaza and buying fuel to keep a power plant running. Obviously, the money was misused and spent on building rockets and missiles. But also a portion was spent on what Qatar intended. The rationale at the time (this was not a secret deal or anything like that) was that Qatar money is going to make it to Gaza one way or another anyway - it's better if Israel knows about it. And somehow throwing Netanyahu into the mix is just meant to have some people see red. He was out of power for a year and a half. Surely if it was his personal agenda, the govt that took over after him would stop the payments. They didn't. But I agree with you that no matter how you twist it, it's definitely a blowback.
        eej71 3y ago
        If Israel is guilty of a sin, they are guilty of moral appeasement. They need to stop giving sanction to their destroyers.
      - SomeoneFromCA 3y ago
        Ben Gvir, Smotrich were all foaming in their mouths how great Hamas is for israel.
- vcryan 3y ago
  Where are you getting this information? Arab don't "need to become secularized" -- why? To make you happy? Being Muslim doesn't make a person anti-Jewish. It is extremely bizarre that you are calling for an entire group of millions of people to change their culture.
  - eej71 3y ago
    As one source, I'd highly recommend Unveiled: How Western Liberals Empower Radical Islam. Yasmine Mohammed provides some first hand experiences here. https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/49645708 https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/49645708
Wytwwww 3y ago
> The world is overwhelmingly pro Palestine That's arguable, certainly in the west at least. Even if most people oppose the current war/atrocities that doesn't mean that they generally favour Palestine (or especially Hamas..) over Israel (.e.g. like you didn't have to be pro-Sadam to oppose the war in Iraq).
- vcryan 3y ago
  The world is pro-justice. At the moment, Israel's genocide and the long-term brutal occupation have caused anyone to pay attention to support Palestine.
  - starik36 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - nerpderp82 3y ago
      Watch the closing remarks, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttrJd2aWF-Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttrJd2aWF-Y it is short. And then the whole thing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FryDCvI7YLo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FryDCvI7YLo https://web.archive.org/web/20240125185410/https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2024/01/11/who-is-the-irish-lawyer-arguing-for-south-africas-genocide-case-against-israel/ https://web.archive.org/web/20240125185410/https://www.irish...
      - starik36 3y ago
        It's remarks by the plaintiff's attorney meant to elicit emotion. It includes zero context. Who died - were they militants with guns? Were they civilian casualties of war? No one knows. Just a bizarre connection between Bethlehem and Gaza. Bethlehem is not in Gaza. I am not sure what facts I am supposed to gather from this.
        nerpderp82 3y ago
        Of course it was, those were the closing remarks. You can watch the full speech which gives you the argument spelled out. Or read South Africa's case https://www.icj-cij.org/case/192 https://www.icj-cij.org/case/192 Ms Ní Ghrálaigh's pedigree in addressing genocide is extensive, as mentioned in the linked article. One can only counter misdirection with facts. There is a Zionist genocide of Palestinians going on right now in Gaza.