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Congrats OP! I'm trying to choose my words carefully, because I don't want to give the wrong impression: 1. I think it's great that OP got the visa, and it's c

Congrats OP! I'm trying to choose my words carefully, because I don't want to give the wrong impression: 1. I think it's great that OP got the visa, and it's clear (at least to me) that we should be attracting entrepreneurial types like OP to start businesses in the US. I also understand that our immigration system is hopelessly broken, and oftentimes the best one can hope to do is "hack" the system. So I commend you for not just hacking the system, but posting this to Hacker News! 2. It seems pretty apparent that while OP may be able to "check some of these boxes", he, at least to me, doesn't meet the "Extraordinary Ability" intent of this visa. I worry that with more spotlight on these types of applications that various political movements would try to tighten the loopholes for this visa. To expand on number 2, raising 98K from family, friends and seed investors really does not strike me as a "nationally or internationally recognized award". Again, clearly it is by the letter of the law (at least the rules of the USCIS), but that surprised me as a layperson. The section on "Being employed in a ‘critical capacity’ at an organization with a distinguished reputation" seemed even more dubious. Path, OP's startup that is nothing more than a pitch deck and 100k in funding, is "an organization with a distinguished reputation"??? Again, to be 100% clear, I don't fault OP at all for going this route, and on the contrary, I commend him for "playing the game" correctly. I just worry about the downstream consequences of "pulling back the curtain" and showing how the game works to a larger audience.

TMWNN 3y ago
>I also understand that our immigration system is hopelessly broken, and oftentimes the best one can hope to do is "hack" the system. Just because something is difficult/time-consuming != "hopelessly broken". (No, kids, the Reason magazine "What Part of Legal Immigration Don't You Understand?" flowchart is not ipso facto proof of this, either.) There is no obligation for the US, or any country, to turn something as important as determining whether someone is eligible to enter the country into a one-click online process. One might say that the country would benefit by making the process easier, and that may or may not be correct, but that is not the same argument.
- Tallain 3y ago
  When I read "the immigration system is broken," I don't think of the arduous process of filing paperwork. I highly doubt GP was whining about the difficult and time-consuming process of filling out reams of paperwork, especially considering the context of the rest of their post where they talked about exploiting loopholes and the letter of the law to abuse the system. Context is important! No matter how high your horse is. In any case, the instant you fall just a little outside the prescribed lines is when things start to get hairy. Have a talk with any DACA recipient and you will quickly learn how broken the system can be. Or someone seeking refugee status around the time the annual ceiling is being reached.
  - hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
    Thank you, said it better than I would have.
  - TMWNN 3y ago
    >especially considering the context of the rest of their post where they talked about exploiting loopholes and the letter of the law to abuse the system. I didn't read the original post that way. If the poster stayed within the rules and—more importantly—immigration officials agreed with his interpretation of the rules, who am I to gainsay their decisions? To put another way, this is why my response was to hn_throwaway_99's comment, not to the original post itself. >Have a talk with any DACA recipient and you will quickly learn how broken the system can be. Or someone seeking refugee status around the time the annual ceiling is being reached. Again, you are coming at this from the perspective that something like DACA must exist, and therefore ought to be improved/eased/etc. The a priori argument that a country must accept refugees, and the only answer to the question of "How many?" is "As many as possible". This is the same entitled line of thinking as hn_throwaway_99's declaration that a complex system with many moving parts that operate over a long period of time must therefore be "broken", with the implication that the "fix" must be to make it as close to a one-button process as possible.
    - DrSAR 3y ago
      The 1951 UNHCR convention [1] would like to disagree that only an entitled line of thinking presupposes rights of refugees. [1] https://www.unhcr.org/about-unhcr/who-we-are/1951-refugee-convention https://www.unhcr.org/about-unhcr/who-we-are/1951-refugee-co...
skynetv2 3y ago
100% agree. Someone I know received an O1 EO visa but they had worked on products that were shipping worldwide for 100s of millions of dollars, filed patents, had advanced degrees, worked at some high profile institutions, had 1000s of citations for their papers, papers published in high profile conferences and journals, and recommendation letters from CEOs, CTOs of high profile organizations from US and abroad. And they were employed in a domain which is identified as a critical technology. Their case was still far from being a high confidence case. The lawyers kept the regular process going, including NIV path. No offense to OP and still a nice achievement but OP's listed criteria are not even close to what would qualify for O1 and would not hold up under scrutiny if the letter and spirit of the criteria is applied. It is possible that USCIS is instructed to encourage issuance for start up founders, which is totally fine and is necessary to keep the innovation going. On a related note, the moment OP resigned from their L1B job, I am fairly certain they needed to leave the country in 60 days or so. It may or may not affect them when they pursue citizenship. But if I were OP, I would not advertise this and count my blessings in private.
- cqqxo4zV46cp 3y ago
  Yep. To look at this a different way: this feels like a fluke, and people should take this n=1 recount for what it is.
  - kelnos 3y ago
    I'm not sure I'd agree it's a fluke. Someone I worked with at a previous company did something very similar to this, and I recall reading an account on HN a couple years back about someone who did it using different criteria than OP, but still in a way that surprised me.
    - aryamaan 3y ago
      Can’t find that blogpost or link anymore. I was along the lines of how I hacked usa visa system
  - dannyw 3y ago
spullara 3y ago
On the other hand, a lot of O-1 visas are given to models. https://www.wildeslaw.com/services/immigration/o-1-visas-for-fashion-models/ https://www.wildeslaw.com/services/immigration/o-1-visas-for...
- skynetv2 3y ago
  And there is a specific criteria to meet to qualify for this visa. Actors also have their own list of requirements. Not every model or actor will qualify.
- marwis 3y ago
  And social media influencers too. It's easier to meet extraordinary ability qualifications in non-technical professions that are more public facing.
- aiauthoritydev 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - kelnos 3y ago
    While I don't doubt many laws are passed with shady intentions, this assertion definitely needs some evidence to back it up.
  - diebeforei485 3y ago
    Not exactly. Models also qualify for H-1B's.
    - aiauthoritydev 3y ago
      H1Bs are limited in number only 64K and they are assinged by lottery as around 300K people apply for them. Also you need to start applying in January and you can come only in October. Escorts often need much faster recruitment and short contracts. H1Bs are used by people from what establishment sees as "undesirable" people such as Indians and Chinese and hence there is far too much red tape and confusion there. Senators and Us Reps aren't going to take their route for their side chicks.
eek2121 3y ago
The process has been broken forever and needs to be reformed. I don't blame any workers either, but just right/left infighting. I have no idea about solving the problem, but if I had to say without giving it thought, I think the US needs a salary/wage database for industry workers that is based on US Citizens and US dollars, and companies shouldn't be allowed to pay less to foreign workers, regardless of if they work here or elsewhere. In exchange, said company should be allowed to hire as many foreign workers as they want and ship them over here. At least then it becomes about talent rather than money, which also helps with the shitshow IT security at many companies that we have now. ...most politicians would never vote for it even though it'd be one of the most competitive laws in the world. Don't want your citizen to leave? get good.
jerrygoyal 3y ago
> I commend you for not just hacking the system your comment implies that he did something illegal, but that is not true. > at least to me, doesn't meet the "Extraordinary Ability" intent of this visa. sorry, who are you?
aiauthoritydev 3y ago
Congrats OP! this is real american hustle. Few counterpoints > and oftentimes the best one can hope to do is "hack" the system None of this is "hacking". This is how it works and supposed to work in the law. The manuals given to USCIS agents who handle this are at best low grade pen pushers. They have zero understanding of the work they are doing and are not qualified to make these decisions in any way. The way they work is through checklists and unless you pass this checklist your intent and what you are has zero relevance. When you go deep into why these laws were created and why these specific regulations exist, you will find out that the lawmakers totally intended this. For example, it is ridiculously easy for a model who has even occasionally walked the ramp to "hack" the system. This was created so escorts, supermodels and side chicks of rich and powerful could be brought in easily on O1. One such lady even ended up in white house. > It seems pretty apparent that while OP may be able to "check some of these boxes", he, at least to me, doesn't meet the "Extraordinary Ability" intent of this visa. I worry that with more spotlight on these types of applications that various political movements would try to tighten the loopholes for this visa. You are not in charge of deciding who is extra ordinary, USCIS agent is. I bet if you were in charge of making such decisions you would do a better job and actually let in 10x more people. But that is not the way it is. USCIS agent makes the decision based on a relatively very objective criteria. > To expand on number 2, raising 98K from family, friends and seed investors really does not strike me as a "nationally or internationally recognized award". It does not "strike to you" is irrelevant. What matters is is it will within the USCIS's defition. Congrats to OP for writign this piece and I hope more and more people use these sort of systematic approach.
lebean 3y ago
I really hope more people can use this loophole as much as possible. The lack of immigrants is lowering the standards of this country, so perhaps if the trend continues, this will no longer be a loophole but a by-the-book exhibition of extraordinary ability.
- mlrtime 3y ago
  >The lack of immigrants is lowering the standards of this country What do you mean by this? There seems to be a divide here and NYC is currently in the middle of a immigrant crisis with nowhere to house immigrants.
  - lebean 3y ago
    The root of that issue is that they can't work. Not legally. For all the complaints anti-immigration people make about immigrants not working, they seem to do everything they can to make it impossible to work here legally, regardless of whether you came here by foot or boat or a sponsorship. Protectionist policies breed stagnation. Being wholesale anti-immigration in the name of protecting "our jobs" is a cover-up for preferring the comfort of not having to compete with the more skilled, more wanting, and more willing and ambitious.
hyperliner 3y ago
[dead]
majani 3y ago
You say this because you are not familiar with Wave (formerly known as Sendwave). It's one of the biggest startups in Africa. Working there is a big deal

TMWNN 3y ago

>I also understand that our immigration system is hopelessly broken, and oftentimes the best one can hope to do is "hack" the system. Just because something is difficult/time-consuming != "hopelessly broken". (No, kids, the Reason magazine "What Part of Legal Immigration Don't You Understand?" flowchart is not ipso facto proof of this, either.) There is no obligation for the US, or any country, to turn something as important as determining whether someone is eligible to enter the country into a one-click online process. One might say that the country would benefit by making the process easier, and that may or may not be correct, but that is not the same argument.

Tallain 3y ago
When I read "the immigration system is broken," I don't think of the arduous process of filing paperwork. I highly doubt GP was whining about the difficult and time-consuming process of filling out reams of paperwork, especially considering the context of the rest of their post where they talked about exploiting loopholes and the letter of the law to abuse the system. Context is important! No matter how high your horse is. In any case, the instant you fall just a little outside the prescribed lines is when things start to get hairy. Have a talk with any DACA recipient and you will quickly learn how broken the system can be. Or someone seeking refugee status around the time the annual ceiling is being reached.
- hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
  Thank you, said it better than I would have.
- TMWNN 3y ago
  >especially considering the context of the rest of their post where they talked about exploiting loopholes and the letter of the law to abuse the system. I didn't read the original post that way. If the poster stayed within the rules and—more importantly—immigration officials agreed with his interpretation of the rules, who am I to gainsay their decisions? To put another way, this is why my response was to hn_throwaway_99's comment, not to the original post itself. >Have a talk with any DACA recipient and you will quickly learn how broken the system can be. Or someone seeking refugee status around the time the annual ceiling is being reached. Again, you are coming at this from the perspective that something like DACA must exist, and therefore ought to be improved/eased/etc. The a priori argument that a country must accept refugees, and the only answer to the question of "How many?" is "As many as possible". This is the same entitled line of thinking as hn_throwaway_99's declaration that a complex system with many moving parts that operate over a long period of time must therefore be "broken", with the implication that the "fix" must be to make it as close to a one-button process as possible.
  - DrSAR 3y ago
    The 1951 UNHCR convention [1] would like to disagree that only an entitled line of thinking presupposes rights of refugees. [1] https://www.unhcr.org/about-unhcr/who-we-are/1951-refugee-convention https://www.unhcr.org/about-unhcr/who-we-are/1951-refugee-co...

skynetv2 3y ago

100% agree. Someone I know received an O1 EO visa but they had worked on products that were shipping worldwide for 100s of millions of dollars, filed patents, had advanced degrees, worked at some high profile institutions, had 1000s of citations for their papers, papers published in high profile conferences and journals, and recommendation letters from CEOs, CTOs of high profile organizations from US and abroad. And they were employed in a domain which is identified as a critical technology. Their case was still far from being a high confidence case. The lawyers kept the regular process going, including NIV path. No offense to OP and still a nice achievement but OP's listed criteria are not even close to what would qualify for O1 and would not hold up under scrutiny if the letter and spirit of the criteria is applied. It is possible that USCIS is instructed to encourage issuance for start up founders, which is totally fine and is necessary to keep the innovation going. On a related note, the moment OP resigned from their L1B job, I am fairly certain they needed to leave the country in 60 days or so. It may or may not affect them when they pursue citizenship. But if I were OP, I would not advertise this and count my blessings in private.

cqqxo4zV46cp 3y ago
Yep. To look at this a different way: this feels like a fluke, and people should take this n=1 recount for what it is.
- kelnos 3y ago
  I'm not sure I'd agree it's a fluke. Someone I worked with at a previous company did something very similar to this, and I recall reading an account on HN a couple years back about someone who did it using different criteria than OP, but still in a way that surprised me.
  - aryamaan 3y ago
    Can’t find that blogpost or link anymore. I was along the lines of how I hacked usa visa system
- dannyw 3y ago

spullara 3y ago

On the other hand, a lot of O-1 visas are given to models. https://www.wildeslaw.com/services/immigration/o-1-visas-for-fashion-models/ https://www.wildeslaw.com/services/immigration/o-1-visas-for...

skynetv2 3y ago
And there is a specific criteria to meet to qualify for this visa. Actors also have their own list of requirements. Not every model or actor will qualify.
marwis 3y ago
And social media influencers too. It's easier to meet extraordinary ability qualifications in non-technical professions that are more public facing.
aiauthoritydev 3y ago
[flagged]
- kelnos 3y ago
  While I don't doubt many laws are passed with shady intentions, this assertion definitely needs some evidence to back it up.
- diebeforei485 3y ago
  Not exactly. Models also qualify for H-1B's.
  - aiauthoritydev 3y ago
    H1Bs are limited in number only 64K and they are assinged by lottery as around 300K people apply for them. Also you need to start applying in January and you can come only in October. Escorts often need much faster recruitment and short contracts. H1Bs are used by people from what establishment sees as "undesirable" people such as Indians and Chinese and hence there is far too much red tape and confusion there. Senators and Us Reps aren't going to take their route for their side chicks.

eek2121 3y ago

The process has been broken forever and needs to be reformed. I don't blame any workers either, but just right/left infighting. I have no idea about solving the problem, but if I had to say without giving it thought, I think the US needs a salary/wage database for industry workers that is based on US Citizens and US dollars, and companies shouldn't be allowed to pay less to foreign workers, regardless of if they work here or elsewhere. In exchange, said company should be allowed to hire as many foreign workers as they want and ship them over here. At least then it becomes about talent rather than money, which also helps with the shitshow IT security at many companies that we have now. ...most politicians would never vote for it even though it'd be one of the most competitive laws in the world. Don't want your citizen to leave? get good.

jerrygoyal 3y ago

> I commend you for not just hacking the system your comment implies that he did something illegal, but that is not true. > at least to me, doesn't meet the "Extraordinary Ability" intent of this visa. sorry, who are you?

aiauthoritydev 3y ago

Congrats OP! this is real american hustle. Few counterpoints > and oftentimes the best one can hope to do is "hack" the system None of this is "hacking". This is how it works and supposed to work in the law. The manuals given to USCIS agents who handle this are at best low grade pen pushers. They have zero understanding of the work they are doing and are not qualified to make these decisions in any way. The way they work is through checklists and unless you pass this checklist your intent and what you are has zero relevance. When you go deep into why these laws were created and why these specific regulations exist, you will find out that the lawmakers totally intended this. For example, it is ridiculously easy for a model who has even occasionally walked the ramp to "hack" the system. This was created so escorts, supermodels and side chicks of rich and powerful could be brought in easily on O1. One such lady even ended up in white house. > It seems pretty apparent that while OP may be able to "check some of these boxes", he, at least to me, doesn't meet the "Extraordinary Ability" intent of this visa. I worry that with more spotlight on these types of applications that various political movements would try to tighten the loopholes for this visa. You are not in charge of deciding who is extra ordinary, USCIS agent is. I bet if you were in charge of making such decisions you would do a better job and actually let in 10x more people. But that is not the way it is. USCIS agent makes the decision based on a relatively very objective criteria. > To expand on number 2, raising 98K from family, friends and seed investors really does not strike me as a "nationally or internationally recognized award". It does not "strike to you" is irrelevant. What matters is is it will within the USCIS's defition. Congrats to OP for writign this piece and I hope more and more people use these sort of systematic approach.

lebean 3y ago

I really hope more people can use this loophole as much as possible. The lack of immigrants is lowering the standards of this country, so perhaps if the trend continues, this will no longer be a loophole but a by-the-book exhibition of extraordinary ability.

mlrtime 3y ago
>The lack of immigrants is lowering the standards of this country What do you mean by this? There seems to be a divide here and NYC is currently in the middle of a immigrant crisis with nowhere to house immigrants.
- lebean 3y ago
  The root of that issue is that they can't work. Not legally. For all the complaints anti-immigration people make about immigrants not working, they seem to do everything they can to make it impossible to work here legally, regardless of whether you came here by foot or boat or a sponsorship. Protectionist policies breed stagnation. Being wholesale anti-immigration in the name of protecting "our jobs" is a cover-up for preferring the comfort of not having to compete with the more skilled, more wanting, and more willing and ambitious.

hyperliner 3y ago

[dead]

majani 3y ago

You say this because you are not familiar with Wave (formerly known as Sendwave). It's one of the biggest startups in Africa. Working there is a big deal