3 ms·

I do not want my car reporting on me I do not need "over the air" updates Sell me the car. I will drive it away and make my own arrangements for maintenance.

by worik 3y ago

I do not want my car reporting on me I do not need "over the air" updates Sell me the car. I will drive it away and make my own arrangements for maintenance. I want an asset, not a subscription Old man shouting at clouds?

edude03 3y ago
Definitely. I don't think you're wrong to want that but I think people who wants teslas buy them for the tech and cloud features.
tomcam 3y ago
I think your last question would be answered in the affirmative if you are using a modern phone. They track everything already.
- lolinder 3y ago
  I can be willing to put up with it in my phone but not in my car. They're both qualitatively and quantitatively quite different.
  - tomcam 3y ago
    That’s a perfectly fair answer. My problem is that the phone telemetry is so extensive I think it just doesn’t matter at this point. Since apparently no major company discloses its telemetry as much as it should I simply don’t know how wrong I am
  - metabro 3y ago
    Phone is far more intrusive anything’s else is negligible by comparison.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
NotSammyHagar 3y ago
Tesla has done a fantastic job of updating the software, adding useful features. They still do (some basic) updates of the cars of 10 years ago. They managed to keep the UI fairly fast and responsive on old hardware, even as they have update the hardware for the console cpu etc many times. This is in contract to VW and many other legacy auto companies, that have struggled with software. I have worried about an upgrade killing my system or bricking the car but more than 10 years late it's good.
- izacus 3y ago
  Didn't they also redesign the UI, hiding useful features?
  - NotSammyHagar 3y ago
    I'd say they made some good and some bad changes, but overall added useful features.
- kibibu 3y ago
  > an upgrade ... bricking the car That this is even plausible should be cause for concern.
  - NotSammyHagar 3y ago
    Modern software for cars is like that for phones. You are not in control of it, you can't roll back, you can't usually pick a particular software version to install. In a decently designed modern car, you have a drivetrain computer system separate from the infotainment (the big console with a map in a tesla, for instance). This is frustrating for me as a software engineer. You have to trust the software maintenance and we all know software can go bad. In cars the general rule is legacy auto companies are terrible, although there are some companies doing okay. Tesla has done a great job, with apparent good boundaries between the UI/infotainment and drivetrain. You can reboot the screens while driving even (which is worrying but they seem to be well divided). They pay people for security attacks on the cars. Tesla has faster update paths for the main UI, and seem to update the drivetrain less frequently, but they do add and remove some features over time. They have "recalls" that are just software updates. A few other companies have done a good job designing and executing on frequent software updates, Rivian is one that has done a good job. Notably though, Rivian did push a bad update this year that messed up people's cars, had to install a new update a few days later. Before that I would say rivian was equal to tesla in quality. Other than they they are but that is a big difference. VW is kind of in the middle. Wants to have good software and updates, but it has been a very painful sequence. They had updates that took too long, they were afraid they'd run out the 12v battery during big updates, possibly bricking a car, so you had to bring them to the dealer. Lately I think I read they had a successful over the air update. Oh yeah, tesla and rivian do all their updates over the air. Park you car for an hour, pick "go". Don't do this on a trip ;0) Then all other legacy cars are terrible. Maybe the worst ever is the GM Lyriq which had a stop sale order it was so bad. Basically unusually, reboot the ui frequently and it keeps getting stuck on people. Hardly believable that they had those problems, apparently no related to a software update bug. There's android auto and apple carplay. A lot of people like them, I think they are very decent. Legacy auto has almost given up on writing their own UIs, they are mostly bad, but some companies are coming back and trying to stop using them so they can control the experince, and maybe charge people for new features eventually. Tesla and Rivian never charged for their main software. Tesla continues to sell FSD for outrageous prices and it is not done, drives like a scared and maybe drunk beginning teenage driver.
ryanisnan 3y ago
> Old man shouting at clouds? Reasonable person reacting to insanity? I believe there's a small but growing market for "dumb" tech. Unfortunately there aren't really many options for cars that I'm aware of. I suspect a quality-but-stupid display company is incubating somewhere, just waiting to nail manufacturing.
- tivert 3y ago
  > I believe there's a small but growing market for "dumb" tech. Unfortunately there aren't really many options for cars that I'm aware of. I suspect a quality-but-stupid display company is incubating somewhere, just waiting to nail manufacturing. I'm pessimistic. The product would be too niche. The problem is twofold: 1. Experts who have the users best interests at heart have bee disempowerd by business-culture and technological change (opening up new avenues of customer exploitation that were previously impossible). 2. A lot of these issues are technical and hard to understand by the average consumer. Furthermore consumers have been trained over the last few decades to put up with a lot of crap. Even if a individual consumer doesn't like something, it will be a vague feeling or a gotcha that happens long after purchase. And what choice are they given by the market? Usually none (e.g. all the copycatting). Just as an example of how terrible the market can be: I understand the quality of many household appliances has fallen through the floor over the last few decades: they break more quickly, more expensively, and are harder to repair. To enable that, many of the major players own so many brands that even a totally unsatisfied consumer is likely to be a repeat customer, even of the exact same model they hate (e.g. have a terrible experience with a Whirlpool washer, then swear off the brand and end up buying a Maytag, which is literally a restyling of the same exact model).
  - flir 3y ago
    There might be a market for ripping that crap out, though. The car has to continue working without ambient data, because it won't always have ambient data. So just metaphorically (or literally) rip out all its antennae.
  - Eddy_Viscosity2 3y ago
    Even if, IF a company started selling a basic dumb reliable car AND it became popular and people started buying it THEN it would only be but a brief moment before the MBAs came it to ruin it and enshittify that car too. I see no stable market place for good basic reliable (and easily repairable) automobiles. Any attempt to do so either: won't happen to begin with, be unsuccessful because it won't induce perceived status like a giant F150, or will eventually turn into the thing it was originally designed to subvert.
CatWChainsaw 3y ago
Just wait until self driving is mastered and you not only have to subscribe to the car but additionally your attention is freed up for other things like ads being projected from every interior surface. :) What a wonderful future!

by worik 3y ago

edude03 3y ago

Definitely. I don't think you're wrong to want that but I think people who wants teslas buy them for the tech and cloud features.

tomcam 3y ago

I think your last question would be answered in the affirmative if you are using a modern phone. They track everything already.

lolinder 3y ago
I can be willing to put up with it in my phone but not in my car. They're both qualitatively and quantitatively quite different.
- tomcam 3y ago
  That’s a perfectly fair answer. My problem is that the phone telemetry is so extensive I think it just doesn’t matter at this point. Since apparently no major company discloses its telemetry as much as it should I simply don’t know how wrong I am
- metabro 3y ago
  Phone is far more intrusive anything’s else is negligible by comparison.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

NotSammyHagar 3y ago

Tesla has done a fantastic job of updating the software, adding useful features. They still do (some basic) updates of the cars of 10 years ago. They managed to keep the UI fairly fast and responsive on old hardware, even as they have update the hardware for the console cpu etc many times. This is in contract to VW and many other legacy auto companies, that have struggled with software. I have worried about an upgrade killing my system or bricking the car but more than 10 years late it's good.

izacus 3y ago
Didn't they also redesign the UI, hiding useful features?
- NotSammyHagar 3y ago
  I'd say they made some good and some bad changes, but overall added useful features.
kibibu 3y ago
> an upgrade ... bricking the car That this is even plausible should be cause for concern.
- NotSammyHagar 3y ago
  Modern software for cars is like that for phones. You are not in control of it, you can't roll back, you can't usually pick a particular software version to install. In a decently designed modern car, you have a drivetrain computer system separate from the infotainment (the big console with a map in a tesla, for instance). This is frustrating for me as a software engineer. You have to trust the software maintenance and we all know software can go bad. In cars the general rule is legacy auto companies are terrible, although there are some companies doing okay. Tesla has done a great job, with apparent good boundaries between the UI/infotainment and drivetrain. You can reboot the screens while driving even (which is worrying but they seem to be well divided). They pay people for security attacks on the cars. Tesla has faster update paths for the main UI, and seem to update the drivetrain less frequently, but they do add and remove some features over time. They have "recalls" that are just software updates. A few other companies have done a good job designing and executing on frequent software updates, Rivian is one that has done a good job. Notably though, Rivian did push a bad update this year that messed up people's cars, had to install a new update a few days later. Before that I would say rivian was equal to tesla in quality. Other than they they are but that is a big difference. VW is kind of in the middle. Wants to have good software and updates, but it has been a very painful sequence. They had updates that took too long, they were afraid they'd run out the 12v battery during big updates, possibly bricking a car, so you had to bring them to the dealer. Lately I think I read they had a successful over the air update. Oh yeah, tesla and rivian do all their updates over the air. Park you car for an hour, pick "go". Don't do this on a trip ;0) Then all other legacy cars are terrible. Maybe the worst ever is the GM Lyriq which had a stop sale order it was so bad. Basically unusually, reboot the ui frequently and it keeps getting stuck on people. Hardly believable that they had those problems, apparently no related to a software update bug. There's android auto and apple carplay. A lot of people like them, I think they are very decent. Legacy auto has almost given up on writing their own UIs, they are mostly bad, but some companies are coming back and trying to stop using them so they can control the experince, and maybe charge people for new features eventually. Tesla and Rivian never charged for their main software. Tesla continues to sell FSD for outrageous prices and it is not done, drives like a scared and maybe drunk beginning teenage driver.

ryanisnan 3y ago

> Old man shouting at clouds? Reasonable person reacting to insanity? I believe there's a small but growing market for "dumb" tech. Unfortunately there aren't really many options for cars that I'm aware of. I suspect a quality-but-stupid display company is incubating somewhere, just waiting to nail manufacturing.

tivert 3y ago
> I believe there's a small but growing market for "dumb" tech. Unfortunately there aren't really many options for cars that I'm aware of. I suspect a quality-but-stupid display company is incubating somewhere, just waiting to nail manufacturing. I'm pessimistic. The product would be too niche. The problem is twofold: 1. Experts who have the users best interests at heart have bee disempowerd by business-culture and technological change (opening up new avenues of customer exploitation that were previously impossible). 2. A lot of these issues are technical and hard to understand by the average consumer. Furthermore consumers have been trained over the last few decades to put up with a lot of crap. Even if a individual consumer doesn't like something, it will be a vague feeling or a gotcha that happens long after purchase. And what choice are they given by the market? Usually none (e.g. all the copycatting). Just as an example of how terrible the market can be: I understand the quality of many household appliances has fallen through the floor over the last few decades: they break more quickly, more expensively, and are harder to repair. To enable that, many of the major players own so many brands that even a totally unsatisfied consumer is likely to be a repeat customer, even of the exact same model they hate (e.g. have a terrible experience with a Whirlpool washer, then swear off the brand and end up buying a Maytag, which is literally a restyling of the same exact model).
- flir 3y ago
  There might be a market for ripping that crap out, though. The car has to continue working without ambient data, because it won't always have ambient data. So just metaphorically (or literally) rip out all its antennae.
- Eddy_Viscosity2 3y ago
  Even if, IF a company started selling a basic dumb reliable car AND it became popular and people started buying it THEN it would only be but a brief moment before the MBAs came it to ruin it and enshittify that car too. I see no stable market place for good basic reliable (and easily repairable) automobiles. Any attempt to do so either: won't happen to begin with, be unsuccessful because it won't induce perceived status like a giant F150, or will eventually turn into the thing it was originally designed to subvert.

CatWChainsaw 3y ago

Just wait until self driving is mastered and you not only have to subscribe to the car but additionally your attention is freed up for other things like ads being projected from every interior surface. :) What a wonderful future!