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I mean, sure. Personally, I’m a relativist. It’s just weird to see the country that recently bent itself backwards—like no other country—to let Vladimir Putin i

I mean, sure. Personally, I’m a relativist. It’s just weird to see the country that recently bent itself backwards—like no other country—to let Vladimir Putin into its territory (it was reported they even considering leaving the ICC), is now bringing suit in the ICC for arguably less worse crimes than Putin. SA was not just apathetic to the genocide/domicide in Ukraine, it basically went out of its way to be party to it. Now it’s taking Israel to court. strange. Sure, many countries are still dealing with Russia, but only SA is dealing with Russia _and_ bringing countries to The Hague at the same time.

WesolyKubeczek 3y ago
SA is dealing with Russia, so it might want to help Russia’s allies, and one of them is Iran who incidentally dreams of nothing less than, well, wiping Israel off the map with wiping out Jews as a cherry on top. Oops. It’s all a tangled mess and I wouldn’t haste to take everything diplomats say at face value.
- timcobb 3y ago
  This is what it looks like to me too.
protomolecule 3y ago
"for arguably less worse crimes than Putin" How many civilians have died in the Ukraine and in Gaza? "to the genocide/domicide in Ukraine" That's very frivolous use of the word 'genocide'. "Now it’s taking Israel to court." Don't you think that it should have been done by the countries which took Russia to the court? They have done nothing. Strange.
- timcobb 3y ago
  Hundreds of thousands of civilians have been killed in Ukraine. Putin is explicitly aiming to destroy Ukrainian national identity, which is genocide. He has disappeared countless people in the occupied territories… literally, countless, no one knows how many because rights orgs don’t operate there. He’s indicted by the ICC for stealing children from occupied territories to solve the Russian “demographic crisis,” and to remove the future generation of Ukrainians. There’s nothing frivolous about this, ask a Ukrainian. See Putin’s many speeches, including from February 24, to this effect, he doesn’t believe Ukrainians or Ukraine has a right to exist, and believed that Ukrainians can be dispensed with like subhumans.
  - CapricornNoble 3y ago
    > Hundreds of thousands of civilians have been killed in Ukraine. Can you link some credible references for this? The OHCHR, as of October 2023, listed 10,000 killed and 18,000 wounded. https://reliefweb.int/report/ukraine/ukraine-civilian-casualties-8-october-2023-enruuk https://reliefweb.int/report/ukraine/ukraine-civilian-casual... For that estimate to be off by AT LEAST an order of magnitude as you are claiming requires quite a bit of evidence.
  - protomolecule 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - timcobb 3y ago
      Sadly I don’t have time right now for a complete response, but for example, in just the battle of Mariupol: Per Russia: 3,000+ civilians killed[43] Per Ukraine: 25,000+ civilians killed[44] 50,000+ deported[45]
      - protomolecule 3y ago
        [flagged]
        timcobb 3y ago
        Who’s reporting the figures from Gaza that everyone is using?
        protomolecule 3y ago
        "Mortality reporting is a crucial indicator of the severity of a conflict setting, but it can also be inflated or under-reported for political purposes. Amidst the ongoing conflict in Gaza, some political parties have indicated scepticism about the reporting of fatalities by the Gaza Ministry of Health (MoH). The Gaza MoH has historically reported accurate mortality data, with discrepancies between MoH reporting and independent United Nations analyses ranging from 1·5% to 3·8% in previous conflicts. A comparison between the Gaza MoH and Israeli Foreign Ministry mortality figures for the 2014 war yielded an 8·0% discrepancy. Public scepticism of the current reports by the Gaza MoH might undermine the efforts to reduce civilian harm and provide life-saving assistance." [0] [0] https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...

WesolyKubeczek 3y ago

SA is dealing with Russia, so it might want to help Russia’s allies, and one of them is Iran who incidentally dreams of nothing less than, well, wiping Israel off the map with wiping out Jews as a cherry on top. Oops. It’s all a tangled mess and I wouldn’t haste to take everything diplomats say at face value.

timcobb 3y ago
This is what it looks like to me too.

protomolecule 3y ago

"for arguably less worse crimes than Putin" How many civilians have died in the Ukraine and in Gaza? "to the genocide/domicide in Ukraine" That's very frivolous use of the word 'genocide'. "Now it’s taking Israel to court." Don't you think that it should have been done by the countries which took Russia to the court? They have done nothing. Strange.

timcobb 3y ago
Hundreds of thousands of civilians have been killed in Ukraine. Putin is explicitly aiming to destroy Ukrainian national identity, which is genocide. He has disappeared countless people in the occupied territories… literally, countless, no one knows how many because rights orgs don’t operate there. He’s indicted by the ICC for stealing children from occupied territories to solve the Russian “demographic crisis,” and to remove the future generation of Ukrainians. There’s nothing frivolous about this, ask a Ukrainian. See Putin’s many speeches, including from February 24, to this effect, he doesn’t believe Ukrainians or Ukraine has a right to exist, and believed that Ukrainians can be dispensed with like subhumans.
- CapricornNoble 3y ago
  > Hundreds of thousands of civilians have been killed in Ukraine. Can you link some credible references for this? The OHCHR, as of October 2023, listed 10,000 killed and 18,000 wounded. https://reliefweb.int/report/ukraine/ukraine-civilian-casualties-8-october-2023-enruuk https://reliefweb.int/report/ukraine/ukraine-civilian-casual... For that estimate to be off by AT LEAST an order of magnitude as you are claiming requires quite a bit of evidence.
- protomolecule 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - timcobb 3y ago
    Sadly I don’t have time right now for a complete response, but for example, in just the battle of Mariupol: Per Russia: 3,000+ civilians killed[43] Per Ukraine: 25,000+ civilians killed[44] 50,000+ deported[45]
    - protomolecule 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - timcobb 3y ago
        Who’s reporting the figures from Gaza that everyone is using?
        protomolecule 3y ago
        "Mortality reporting is a crucial indicator of the severity of a conflict setting, but it can also be inflated or under-reported for political purposes. Amidst the ongoing conflict in Gaza, some political parties have indicated scepticism about the reporting of fatalities by the Gaza Ministry of Health (MoH). The Gaza MoH has historically reported accurate mortality data, with discrepancies between MoH reporting and independent United Nations analyses ranging from 1·5% to 3·8% in previous conflicts. A comparison between the Gaza MoH and Israeli Foreign Ministry mortality figures for the 2014 war yielded an 8·0% discrepancy. Public scepticism of the current reports by the Gaza MoH might undermine the efforts to reduce civilian harm and provide life-saving assistance." [0] [0] https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...