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The F-35 seems to still be struggling. Among other things, it still is unable to survive a lightning strike, which is a pretty basic requirement even for civil

The F-35 seems to still be struggling. Among other things, it still is unable to survive a lightning strike, which is a pretty basic requirement even for civil aircraft. Making it the overriding priority stank of politics.

cdchn 3y ago
Have any F-35s been lost to lightning? Maybe the military is more flexible for lighting strike resistance because of their rarity/flight hours/operating envelopes/number of souls on board? Is there any irony that its called the "F-35 Lightning II?" EDIT: System that injects nitrogen into the fuel tanks was found to be faulty. They're fixing them but have just restricted them from flying near thunderstorms in the mean time.
josefresco 3y ago
I spend a lot of time at The Warzone (https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone) and the F-35 is now almost unanimously considered a resounding success. Rocky start sure, and at the time it was thought to be too costly. Fast forward in time, and with production going well(1), customers lining up(2,3) and deploying(4), this platform looks now to be a very smart investment. 1- https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/the-1000th-f-35-has-been-built https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/the-1000th-f-35-has-be... 2- https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/romania-unveils-plan-to-buy-f-35s https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/romania-unveils-plan-t... 3- https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/10362/germany-might-join-the-f-35-program https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/10362/germany-might-jo... 4- https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/royal-navy-activates-first-f-35b-unit-big-decisions-on-types-future-loom https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/royal-navy-activates-f...
- belter 3y ago
  Those customers had almost no option. Now the platform still needs to be tested in combat. Bombing runs on terrorist camps do not count.
  - josefresco 3y ago
    You mean like this? https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/israels-f-35i-combat-experience-is-providing-lessons-for-future-pacific-fight https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/israels-f-35i-combat-e... Or maybe this: https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/israeli-f-35-shoots-down-cruise-missile https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/israeli-f-35-shoots-do... These are "top level weapons systems", not deployed unless you are okay with your enemy collecting data on your strike. Don't expect the F-35 to be deployed for routine missions when the older platforms (F-16) are still so dominant and also selling well: https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/turkish-f-16-deal-now-being-fast-tracked-by-biden-admin https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/turkish-f-16-deal-now-... https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/36296/new-f-16s-will-all-be-sold-in-a-single-baseline-configuration-with-a-standardized-price https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/36296/new-f-16s-will-a... The F-35 is truly a next generation warfighting platform (not just fighter/bomber) that will only get better/more capable as combat sorties are logged and the "loyal wingman" program evolves.
    - NotSammyHagar 3y ago
      I recently saw an article, maybe at the thedrive that was about F35s in Norway practicing landing, refueling, taking off on roads, I think aimed at a dispersal program where in a way they wouldn't have to land at only airbases. Found it https://www.thedefensepost.com/2023/09/25/lockheed-fighter-jets-highway https://www.thedefensepost.com/2023/09/25/lockheed-fighter-j...
- quanto 3y ago
  Indeed, the public's tune on F-35 has changed to positive. How much was due to actual improvements in operations and manufacturing versus change of perception, i.e. media no longer blasting perceived failures of then-nascent project?
  - josefresco 3y ago
    A lot of hard work has been put into refining the F-35. I'd say it's a mix of both. The "fixes" weren't trusted until we saw deployment, sales, and sorties!
    - quanto 3y ago
      That's my impression as well: the F-35 program materially improved, but it also helps that the media no longer calls it a trillion dollar failure.
  - ianburrell 3y ago
    I think part of the problem with F-35 was that it took a long time to be developed. First flight was in 2006 and entered service 2015 to 2019. That is a long time to be paying for plane that can't see. I think entering service with foreign countries and the price dropping with full production is what caused it to be accepted.
    - jiggawatts 3y ago
      One hilarious side effect of this protracted timeline is that its central computer is about as powerful as a Pentium 1 from the 1990s. Not to worry: it’s being upgraded this year to a computer as powerful as the SoC in the first generation Apple Watch. “Flying supercomputer” indeed…
Vecr 3y ago
The US is going to have 1000+ soon, even if they lost half of them they'd still have enough to roll the stealth fighter fleets of China and Russia at the same time.
dgrin91 3y ago
Source? I see a lot of complaints about issues on the F35 that were fixed years ago. No question its a way over budget project that had a problematic start, but from at least some sources I've seen the program seems to be much better now that its got more operational experience.
- bradley13 3y ago
  I'm in Switzerland, which has (unfortunately, IMHO) ordered a batch of F-35s. We have just been advised to not fly them near thunderstorms, with no fix until at least 2027. We have a lot of mountains. We have a lot if thunderstorms.
mikece 3y ago
If we think of the F-35 as needing to be a dogfighter like previous fighters then it's a dud. However, when you consider the tactics and deployments possible when using a fighter that cannot be seen on radar (until it's a lot closer than, say, an F-18E) then you enable attack plans where the F-35s launch and deploy first and the non-stealth F-18s go second... which prompt enemy fighter pilots to scramble and then say things like "Holy crap, where did that missile come from?" as their final words because the F-35s were already in missile range when they left the runway. This leaves the path clear of enemy fighters for the bomb trucks to come in and do their thing while the enemy reels in confusion at seeing their fighter response removed from the board minutes after going wheels up.
tekla 3y ago
In what universe is the F35 struggling? There are issues being dealt with, but it has a high rate of production as is being flown by major US allies and is flown in regular service. Do you have any stats or knowledge detailing why the F35 might seem to be struggling? Note: I've worked on the F35 project, so have fairly decent knowledge on the issue. I'm pretty sure you're making stuff up.
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> it still is unable to survive a lightning strike, which is a pretty basic requirement even for civil aircraft Military aircraft tend to be less robust. From being aerodynamic instability (to be more maneouverable) to engine failure being a game over, the trade-offs you make are different between the domains. Also, the F-35 has lightning mitigation [1]. We just don't know how well it works, so we're avoiding flying it in lightning when not necessary. If we had to scramble jets into lightning, we'd do it. [1] https://breakingdefense.com/2022/11/pentagon-wont-lift-f-35a-lightning-restrictions-after-hardware-and-software-fix/ https://breakingdefense.com/2022/11/pentagon-wont-lift-f-35a...

cdchn 3y ago

Have any F-35s been lost to lightning? Maybe the military is more flexible for lighting strike resistance because of their rarity/flight hours/operating envelopes/number of souls on board? Is there any irony that its called the "F-35 Lightning II?" EDIT: System that injects nitrogen into the fuel tanks was found to be faulty. They're fixing them but have just restricted them from flying near thunderstorms in the mean time.

josefresco 3y ago

I spend a lot of time at The Warzone (https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone) and the F-35 is now almost unanimously considered a resounding success. Rocky start sure, and at the time it was thought to be too costly. Fast forward in time, and with production going well(1), customers lining up(2,3) and deploying(4), this platform looks now to be a very smart investment. 1- https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/the-1000th-f-35-has-been-built https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/the-1000th-f-35-has-be... 2- https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/romania-unveils-plan-to-buy-f-35s https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/romania-unveils-plan-t... 3- https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/10362/germany-might-join-the-f-35-program https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/10362/germany-might-jo... 4- https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/royal-navy-activates-first-f-35b-unit-big-decisions-on-types-future-loom https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/royal-navy-activates-f...

belter 3y ago
Those customers had almost no option. Now the platform still needs to be tested in combat. Bombing runs on terrorist camps do not count.
- josefresco 3y ago
  You mean like this? https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/israels-f-35i-combat-experience-is-providing-lessons-for-future-pacific-fight https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/israels-f-35i-combat-e... Or maybe this: https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/israeli-f-35-shoots-down-cruise-missile https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/israeli-f-35-shoots-do... These are "top level weapons systems", not deployed unless you are okay with your enemy collecting data on your strike. Don't expect the F-35 to be deployed for routine missions when the older platforms (F-16) are still so dominant and also selling well: https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/turkish-f-16-deal-now-being-fast-tracked-by-biden-admin https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/turkish-f-16-deal-now-... https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/36296/new-f-16s-will-all-be-sold-in-a-single-baseline-configuration-with-a-standardized-price https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/36296/new-f-16s-will-a... The F-35 is truly a next generation warfighting platform (not just fighter/bomber) that will only get better/more capable as combat sorties are logged and the "loyal wingman" program evolves.
  - NotSammyHagar 3y ago
    I recently saw an article, maybe at the thedrive that was about F35s in Norway practicing landing, refueling, taking off on roads, I think aimed at a dispersal program where in a way they wouldn't have to land at only airbases. Found it https://www.thedefensepost.com/2023/09/25/lockheed-fighter-jets-highway https://www.thedefensepost.com/2023/09/25/lockheed-fighter-j...
quanto 3y ago
Indeed, the public's tune on F-35 has changed to positive. How much was due to actual improvements in operations and manufacturing versus change of perception, i.e. media no longer blasting perceived failures of then-nascent project?
- josefresco 3y ago
  A lot of hard work has been put into refining the F-35. I'd say it's a mix of both. The "fixes" weren't trusted until we saw deployment, sales, and sorties!
  - quanto 3y ago
    That's my impression as well: the F-35 program materially improved, but it also helps that the media no longer calls it a trillion dollar failure.
- ianburrell 3y ago
  I think part of the problem with F-35 was that it took a long time to be developed. First flight was in 2006 and entered service 2015 to 2019. That is a long time to be paying for plane that can't see. I think entering service with foreign countries and the price dropping with full production is what caused it to be accepted.
  - jiggawatts 3y ago
    One hilarious side effect of this protracted timeline is that its central computer is about as powerful as a Pentium 1 from the 1990s. Not to worry: it’s being upgraded this year to a computer as powerful as the SoC in the first generation Apple Watch. “Flying supercomputer” indeed…

Vecr 3y ago

The US is going to have 1000+ soon, even if they lost half of them they'd still have enough to roll the stealth fighter fleets of China and Russia at the same time.

dgrin91 3y ago

Source? I see a lot of complaints about issues on the F35 that were fixed years ago. No question its a way over budget project that had a problematic start, but from at least some sources I've seen the program seems to be much better now that its got more operational experience.

bradley13 3y ago
I'm in Switzerland, which has (unfortunately, IMHO) ordered a batch of F-35s. We have just been advised to not fly them near thunderstorms, with no fix until at least 2027. We have a lot of mountains. We have a lot if thunderstorms.

mikece 3y ago

If we think of the F-35 as needing to be a dogfighter like previous fighters then it's a dud. However, when you consider the tactics and deployments possible when using a fighter that cannot be seen on radar (until it's a lot closer than, say, an F-18E) then you enable attack plans where the F-35s launch and deploy first and the non-stealth F-18s go second... which prompt enemy fighter pilots to scramble and then say things like "Holy crap, where did that missile come from?" as their final words because the F-35s were already in missile range when they left the runway. This leaves the path clear of enemy fighters for the bomb trucks to come in and do their thing while the enemy reels in confusion at seeing their fighter response removed from the board minutes after going wheels up.

tekla 3y ago

In what universe is the F35 struggling? There are issues being dealt with, but it has a high rate of production as is being flown by major US allies and is flown in regular service. Do you have any stats or knowledge detailing why the F35 might seem to be struggling? Note: I've worked on the F35 project, so have fairly decent knowledge on the issue. I'm pretty sure you're making stuff up.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> it still is unable to survive a lightning strike, which is a pretty basic requirement even for civil aircraft Military aircraft tend to be less robust. From being aerodynamic instability (to be more maneouverable) to engine failure being a game over, the trade-offs you make are different between the domains. Also, the F-35 has lightning mitigation [1]. We just don't know how well it works, so we're avoiding flying it in lightning when not necessary. If we had to scramble jets into lightning, we'd do it. [1] https://breakingdefense.com/2022/11/pentagon-wont-lift-f-35a-lightning-restrictions-after-hardware-and-software-fix/ https://breakingdefense.com/2022/11/pentagon-wont-lift-f-35a...